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  1. #6256
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Im not bothered by the choices Clark made with the Jon situation, but I do think those segments were rushed.

    At Jon's age, Clark was spending weekends in the deep future. So letting Jon spend a summer in space? Not really a big deal when you have the GLC on your contacts list. In theory it's just down the street, right? And while I never read the Oz Effect (skipped Jurgens' Action to read Tomasi) as I understand it Jor-El wasn't himself. Clark would want to foster a relationship there, for him and Jon both. But I think Bendis rushed through it; there should have been longer, deeper conversations. Bendis hit the bullet points of how that discussion would/could go, but didn't take the time to flesh the moments out.

    Other than that, I'm largely fine with it. Clark always struggled when it came to family (before Jon was born anyway) and had a pretty weird childhood with a lot of freedom. And Jon's not a normal kid with normal needs. So sure, space with Grandpa. It's a questionable choice but given Clark's own life, well, his parenting skills should be a little off kilter anyway. Bendis just should've taken more time with the scenes, what we got was far too brief to feel organic.
    In Jurgens' run, the last we see of Jor-El is him getting zapped away. Then suddenly shows up, with a ship, in Man of Steel.

    Yeah, there's a big gaping hole in between there that has NEVER been explained.

  2. #6257
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    With the addendum that it was clearly Dr. Manhattan that zapped Jor-El away. That matters because with the massive Doomsday Clock delays, the legitimate question can be asked whether or not Bendis was even allowed to fill in that blank at the time. Its not at all unlikely that there was some intended synchronization going on there at that particular point in time that didn't quite work out as intended.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-31-2019 at 06:47 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  3. #6258
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Im not bothered by the choices Clark made with the Jon situation, but I do think those segments were rushed.

    At Jon's age, Clark was spending weekends in the deep future. So letting Jon spend a summer in space? Not really a big deal when you have the GLC on your contacts list. In theory it's just down the street, right? And while I never read the Oz Effect (skipped Jurgens' Action to read Tomasi) as I understand it Jor-El wasn't himself. Clark would want to foster a relationship there, for him and Jon both. But I think Bendis rushed through it; there should have been longer, deeper conversations. Bendis hit the bullet points of how that discussion would/could go, but didn't take the time to flesh the moments out.

    Other than that, I'm largely fine with it. Clark always struggled when it came to family (before Jon was born anyway) and had a pretty weird childhood with a lot of freedom. And Jon's not a normal kid with normal needs. So sure, space with Grandpa. It's a questionable choice but given Clark's own life, well, his parenting skills should be a little off kilter anyway. Bendis just should've taken more time with the scenes, what we got was far too brief to feel organic.
    This is my main issue as well. Same goes for Lois' decisions. They could all be justified by the events had they been spread out and fleshed out. Her leaving Jon with Jor El after seeing them together and seeing more of Jon coming into his own. Her experience on the planet with the crowd as well. A few of those sequences would have made her actions more organic.

  4. #6259
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Nah Clark and Lois ditching the kid in outer space with someone who they last saw committing multiple acts of terrorism is just an absurdly stupid plot point, it wouldn’t have worked even if they threw in more scenes. Even by dc parenting logic this was just asinine.

  5. #6260
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Jon's best friend is a artificially aged child assassin. They and their entire social circle have been mind controlled at some point. Superman's best friend, Batman, has had his plans to murder Clark stolen and used against him.

    Jor El's past is like routine for them.
    Last edited by Yoda; 05-31-2019 at 08:32 PM.

  6. #6261
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Jon's best friend is a artificially aged child assassin. They and their entire social circle have been mind controlled at some point. Superman's best friend has had his plans to murder him stolen and used against him.

    Jor El's past is like routine for them.
    I don’t see any gaps in storytelling logic where those plot points are concerned. Whereas this utterly failed in that regard on a fundamental level.

  7. #6262
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I don’t see any gaps in storytelling logic where those plot points are concerned. Whereas this utterly failed in that regard on a fundamental level.
    Doomsday Clocks delays botched that up I think. Bendis has said as much. Jor El likely is freed from Manhattan there. That’s the only gap. The rest would make sense if it was fleshed out more and not rushed. The concepts work, just the execution is lacking.

  8. #6263
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    I understand the point you are trying to make, but it’s kinda like saying “Peter Parker making a deal with the devil makes sense because he knows a talking raccoon and his best friend can turn himself on fire! Aren’t comics wacky?!?” I mean yeah you’re right these stories are wacky, can be over the top and by no means realistic. But that doesn’t excuse inconsistent characterization and plot holes. Bad writing is bad writing.

  9. #6264
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I am not really complaining about Clark's choices itself, here(even though it has left a lot to be desired) . But his reaction. Clark doesn't seem like a dotting overprotective father or husband he was in the previous run. He seems passive."oh! I lost years of my son's life, guess i will puncb a rock" and what do you know he got over it. "oh!my wife left my child in space with a dubious stranger, and i have no way to find him. Oh! Well atleast i can have sex". Then he let it go,pretty fast and easily. Not a reaction, i would expect from a guy wants to hang on to his family tighter or someone who believes losing family is like losing an arm. He let's things go to easily, without any genuine struggle to adjust or get over these things.
    Yes, the description(someone who wants to hold family tighter) would be true for tomasi/jurgen superman, as he struggled with these things and had anger issues. I just don't think Bendis's superman fits that bill anymore.

    Edit-clark wasn't exactly welcoming of jon, damian friendship. especially, after supersons of tomorrow. Damian loyalty is what changed clarks mind. He struggled with that as well in the beginning and the end.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-31-2019 at 09:33 PM.

  10. #6265
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Doomsday Clocks delays botched that up I think. Bendis has said as much. Jor El likely is freed from Manhattan there. That’s the only gap. The rest would make sense if it was fleshed out more and not rushed. The concepts work, just the execution is lacking.
    The concept doesn't work, because no resolution between the Kents and Jor-El was even hinted at prior to shipping Jon and Lois off into space.

  11. #6266
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Sorry, but i consider myself "a broken boy from a broken home", forgive me I am getting a little personal. Clark's reaction to jon ageup situation and lois leaving jon in space is very subpar. My favourite superman story is "for the man who has everything" because Clark's yearning had struck a cord with me. That guy and tomasi/jurgens superman reaction would have been wayyy different to these situations, i believe that guy would have blown a gasket and would have been miffed for a while. Bendis's superman seemed indifferent as a father and husband,rather than someone who wants to hold on to his family tighter(punching rocks is not much of a good reaction). That is just my opinion. Frankly, i would appreciate Bendis if he didn't focus on the family. He should just go for world building, detective stories.. Etc.
    Family drama is clearly not his forte.
    Itís funny because once upon a time, Bendis was the guy for family drama with USM. But yeah itís definitely one of the weakest parts of this new era.

  12. #6267
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The concept doesn't work, because no resolution between the Kents and Jor-El was even hinted at prior to shipping Jon and Lois off into space.
    I disagree there. Clark’s reaction to Jor El’s appearance implies that there was resolution with Jor El. At least with Clark. He’s exasperated that his dad just popped in. That reaction, not how are you free, where did you get a ship, etc. all hints that things have progressed beyond the Oz Effect end point. Clark’s conversation with Lois about having a blind spot for his Dad also indicates they have more history together than we have seen. All that, along with the statements about Doomsday Clock resolving things in Bendis’ run, and Bendis saying he hasn’t forgotten Manhattan’s role are all indications that we don’t yet have the full picture.

  13. #6268
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The concept doesn't work, because no resolution between the Kents and Jor-El was even hinted at prior to shipping Jon and Lois off into space.
    That's not true. At least not in Superman's case. He and Jor-El do have their moment in the conclusion to Oz Effect. Albeit brief, but it was there. After the staff is broken when Jor-El is himself again and Superman realizes that this is his true father. That's undeniable. Now, there's not resolution in the fact that Superman still has trouble coming to grips with all that went down, as the next arc would clearly show, mind-control or no. But they do share that moment regardless.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-01-2019 at 10:37 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #6269
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That's not true. At least not in Superman's case. He and Jor-El do have their moment in the conclusion to Oz Effect. Albeit brief, but it was there. After the staff is broken when Jor-El is himself again and Superman realizes that this is his true father. That's undeniable. Now, there's not resolution in the fact that Superman still has trouble coming to grips with all that went down, as the next arc would clearly show, mind-control or no. But they do share that moment regardless.
    Clark was more confused and broken about the whole ordeal than at peace with his father.
    They didn't get to have closure, jor el was pulled back before that.it was bittersweet ending were clark decides to be the hope for people despite losing his faith in his father who was his idol and one of the reasons he does what he does. There was no hint that Jor el was of the hook from clark.

  15. #6270
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I didn't suggest there he was off the hook with Clark. What I said was that Clark knew Jor-El was being controlled and that he did get to have a moment with his "true" father. It may not have been fully wrapped up in a bow in regards to feelings, but logically he knew this coming out of Oz Effect. It was bittersweet, it wasn't everything, but it was something. This often gets omitted when some talk about Clark letting his son go off with a genocidal maniac (not everyone, even with this information intact there are plenty others who still have justifiable issue here and I don't gainsay that). He knows at that point that his father is not really those things and that was a result of his mind-control. Doesn't mean he fully trusts the real him, doesn't mean he even fully knows the real him, but he does at the point of MOS know that much continuity-wise.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-01-2019 at 11:41 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

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