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  1. #6271
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I didn't suggest there he was off the hook with Clark. What I said was that Clark knew Jor-El was being controlled and that he did get to have a moment with his "true" father. It may not have been fully wrapped up in a bow in regards to feelings, but logically he knew this coming out of Oz Effect. It was bittersweet, it wasn't everything, but it was something. This often gets omitted when some talk about Clark letting his son go off with a genocidal maniac (not everyone, even with this information intact there are plenty others who still have justifiable issue here and I don't gainsay that). He knows at that point that his father is not really those things and that was a result of his mind-control. Doesn't mean he fully trusts the real him, doesn't mean he even fully knows the real him, but he does at the point of MOS know that much continuity-wise.

    I get the issues people have regardless
    My whole issue with it is that there should have been an issue before MOS that shows Jor-el building trust with Clark. It also could've been shown in MOS briefly just to show there is trust.

  2. #6272
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    I think I might need a little help understanding the criticism in regards to how Clark has taken Jon's age up and being apart from his family in general?

    Because in the two books I'm reading he's been having a pretty rough go of it. For starters when he lost the only means of communication with his family in Man of Steel he literally detonated his most powerful ability out of white hot anger. In Superman issue 1 he's seen 1) literally just trying to fly out into the vastness of space to look for them by hand, 2) talking to Martian Manhunter about alternative ways of communicating with them, and 3) sitting in his house longing for his family. Even after they leave at the end of Man of Steel Clark goes into Jon's room and breaks down. Even though he agreed to everything (begrudgingly), he still can't help put feel the way he feels. Then even while the craziness of the Earth getting sucked into the Phantom Zone is going on Clark literally has a moment where he's just like "I may never see my family again." He does his best to solder through his drifting thoughts, but as we see in that first arc, his thoughts are never ever far from Lois and Jon. Hell, even while Zaar and solders are beating on Clark from the upper atmosphere back to Earth, and he nearly blacks out, Clark finds himself thinking of Jon.

    Then when Jon finally gets home and he sees what's happened Clark's beside himself. He can only hug Jon as tight as super-humanly possible, and his mind is already working on ways to try and fix it because he knows this sort of stuff happens in his life. And through Jon's story Lois and Clark have to regularly stop the boy from going on because they're just so emotionally drained, and this is obviously one of the hardest things they've ever had to go through. Now Clark is heading out into space to find his father and hopefully more answers, but they're side tracked by a space battle and Zaar.

    At all times Superman is CONSTANTLY juggling the fate of his city, the world, and now the possible the whole galaxy alongside his personal life. Throughout these 10 issues of Superman, 6 issue of Man of Steel, and 10 issues of Action Clark's thoughts have never been far from his family. And he's done a great deal of expressing his emotions in both subtle and explosive ways while trying to keep the world and the now the galaxy spinning.

    PS, I find it ironic that someone joked about Clark daydreaming while Jon told his story. It's funny because Clark goes on to basically imply that he hasn't been sleeping.... like at all, and occasional daydreams are his subconscious trying to have time because his waking brain has been on this whole time. In fact, it's quite possible that Clark hasn't slept for 3 week because of all of this and being busy as Superman.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-01-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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  3. #6273
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    One thing that people overlook is the fact that Lois came in one of Jor-el 's ship. It would have a communicator in it to contact Jor-el and Jon.

  4. #6274
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Or, since it teleports, it just went back to the main ship after Lois gets out......
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  5. #6275
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    Clark is in a damned if does, damned if doesn't situation with fans. You cannot please all his fans all of the times. He dwells on his family, someone somewhere hates it and accuses him of neglecting his Super duties by putting them first over everything else. He goes about his business of saving people (albeit begrudgingly) and he's accused of not caring enough about his own kid. He shows a little emotion and suddenly he's too moody nobody wants to see that. He tables his emotions while dealing with another crises, then he's too blasé, on and on... No matter what he does, he'll never win.

    The thing with Jor-El and how Clark reacted to him showing up in his house, I deduced that more happened between that moment and the end of the Oz effect. Clark was more vexed over the interruption/Jor-El ship in the middle of his home than whether or not his father was in his right mind to go galavanting across the galaxy with his family, let's not forget that the whole family was invited and they all could have gone with Jor-El if it weren't for Clark and his responsibilities. I think some arguments against what's happened with Jon may be wilfully ignoring certain factors just because Jon's aging up sucks. I agree that it sucks but not everything else that incorrectly brands Clark a bad parent.

  6. #6276
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Or, since it teleports, it just went back to the main ship after Lois gets out......
    It didn't teleport back. When Jon got back home, he didn't know if Lois made it back to earth or not. Jon was with Jor-el for a while after she had left. Jon would've seen the ship show back up if it teleported back.

  7. #6277
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock420 View Post
    It didn't teleport back. When Jon got back home, he didn't know if Lois made it back to earth or not. Jon was with Jor-el for a while after she had left. Jon would've seen the ship show back up if it teleported back.
    Even if he saw the ship come back he wouldn't know for sure that his mom was ok. He'd just know that she exited the ship somewhere....hopefully on Earth. With how crazy and random Jon has seen the universe can be, I think it's a fair worry.
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  8. #6278
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    Clark is in a damned if does, damned if doesn't situation with fans. You cannot please all his fans all of the times. He dwells on his family, someone somewhere hates it and accuses him of neglecting his Super duties by putting them first over everything else. He goes about his business of saving people (albeit begrudgingly) and he's accused of not caring enough about his own kid. He shows a little emotion and suddenly he's too moody nobody wants to see that. He tables his emotions while dealing with another crises, then he's too blasé, on and on... No matter what he does, he'll never win.

    The thing with Jor-El and how Clark reacted to him showing up in his house, I deduced that more happened between that moment and the end of the Oz effect. Clark was more vexed over the interruption/Jor-El ship in the middle of his home than whether or not his father was in his right mind to go galavanting across the galaxy with his family, let's not forget that the whole family was invited and they all could have gone with Jor-El if it weren't for Clark and his responsibilities. I think some arguments against what's happened with Jon may be wilfully ignoring certain factors just because Jon's aging up sucks. I agree that it sucks but not everything else that incorrectly brands Clark a bad parent.
    I find this happens when people care more about the symbol than the character. It's one thing for a character to be out of character, but they need to have range. I find a lot of people thinking it's weird that Clark was a bit overprotective of Jon in the early Rebirth stuff, or that he moped when his family was missing, and I'm perplexed by it. Then there's "he's about truth but lies about his identity!"

    He's a man, super or otherwise. He has flaws and emotions. Is he a vengeful dick with eyes aflame? No, but can he get angry? Sure. I enjoyed Bendis having him tell Jon that sometimes he wants to pop Bruce's head off sometimes. That's a very normal feeling for close friends and family to have at times.

    It doesn't help that editorial seems to think he's some hokey fireman from yesteryear we should respect until it's time for him to job for sales. They really don't care about him. Hell, they banished Berganza to his office and made it a no-fly zone for female creators for fear of sexual harassment.

  9. #6279
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Even if he saw the ship come back he wouldn't know for sure that his mom was ok. He'd just know that she exited the ship somewhere....hopefully on Earth. With how crazy and random Jon has seen the universe can be, I think it's a fair worry.
    It's open for interpretation. What I'm thinking is that it's a way to get young Jon back if teen Jon doesn't work out.

  10. #6280
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    I stumbled upon this. Looks like Superfamily with Zod and it looks like there at a Thanagarian place.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/ByLrJ1xB...=1u11zr5g86do5

  11. #6281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I think I might need a little help understanding the criticism in regards to how Clark has taken Jon's age up and being apart from his family in general?

    Because in the two books I'm reading he's been having a pretty rough go of it. For starters when he lost the only means of communication with his family in Man of Steel he literally detonated his most powerful ability out of white hot anger. In Superman issue 1 he's seen 1) literally just trying to fly out into the vastness of space to look for them by hand, 2) talking to Martian Manhunter about alternative ways of communicating with them, and 3) sitting in his house longing for his family. Even after they leave at the end of Man of Steel Clark goes into Jon's room and breaks down. Even though he agreed to everything (begrudgingly), he still can't help put feel the way he feels. Then even while the craziness of the Earth getting sucked into the Phantom Zone is going on Clark literally has a moment where he's just like "I may never see my family again." He does his best to solder through his drifting thoughts, but as we see in that first arc, his thoughts are never ever far from Lois and Jon. Hell, even while Zaar and solders are beating on Clark from the upper atmosphere back to Earth, and he nearly blacks out, Clark finds himself thinking of Jon.
    I guess, you are right those instances does portray Clark's sorrow. But, it still feels to too tame and passive of a reaction compared to something like 'for the man who has everything' since they both deal with clark coming to grips with realisation of losing his family. I always pictured clark with an explosive anger like vegeta when it comes to family.most of the time, from my dealings with the character he has been as such like in 'man of steel' movie where zod threatened martha.
    Anyway, it still feels like clark is just sorrowfully letting things happen. rather than angrily and desperately trying to take control of the situation for me. I always pictured clark to have later reaction, from his previous run characterisation and my head canon. I guess, you can't compare since bendis has a different vision for what clark is.
    Oh, yeah! Clark hasn't told the justice league about the missing family yet. has he? Martian manhunter convo was restricted.wasn't it?the way i see it hal could have helped since jon was in contact with green lantern corps. But,again that would go back to Clark's choices territory.

  12. #6282
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I understand the point you are trying to make, but it’s kinda like saying “Peter Parker making a deal with the devil makes sense because he knows a talking raccoon and his best friend can turn himself on fire! Aren’t comics wacky?!?” I mean yeah you’re right these stories are wacky, can be over the top and by no means realistic. But that doesn’t excuse inconsistent characterization and plot holes. Bad writing is bad writing.
    Nah, I dont see this as being inconsistent. Clark grew up doing things that no modern parent would support or allow. Since Rebirth he's allowed Jon to do similar things.

    We needed some more page time to flesh this out so it rolled easier, but what went down? A long-lost relative who had previously been mind controlled showed up. Who, among Clark's peer group, hasn't been mind controlled or had a relative show up out of the blue? Seriously, can anyone name two? Jon needed to get off-planet and wanted to spend a summer abroad in space. Again, not a big deal for a guy who spent high school traveling the future without any adult supervision of any kind, nor any way to contact his family back home. Lois went along to make sure things were okay, and went home when she decided they were. Which is basically the same thing as driving your kid to summer camp, taking a quick tour, and then leaving.

    Nothing here is unusual or out of character. If you're expecting Clark and Lois to react the way most regular parents would then you're misunderstanding both Clark as a character and the dynamic of the Kent family. I mean, if you dont like it you dont like it. That's cool. But out of character? No. The only way it could even be vaguely out of character is if the only reference you use is Tomasi's version of the Super Rockwellian family.
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  13. #6283
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Nah, I dont see this as being inconsistent. Clark grew up doing things that no modern parent would support or allow. Since Rebirth he's allowed Jon to do similar things.

    We needed some more page time to flesh this out so it rolled easier, but what went down? A long-lost relative who had previously been mind controlled showed up. Who, among Clark's peer group, hasn't been mind controlled or had a relative show up out of the blue? Seriously, can anyone name two? Jon needed to get off-planet and wanted to spend a summer abroad in space. Again, not a big deal for a guy who spent high school traveling the future without any adult supervision of any kind, nor any way to contact his family back home. Lois went along to make sure things were okay, and went home when she decided they were. Which is basically the same thing as driving your kid to summer camp, taking a quick tour, and then leaving.

    Nothing here is unusual or out of character. If you're expecting Clark and Lois to react the way most regular parents would then you're misunderstanding both Clark as a character and the dynamic of the Kent family. I mean, if you dont like it you dont like it. That's cool. But out of character? No. The only way it could even be vaguely out of character is if the only reference you use is Tomasi's version of the Super Rockwellian family.
    The problem is not specifically Jor-El being last seen committing mass terrorism. Obviously we expect a little ease on the child safety standards in a universe with Robin existing. But even then it doesn’t work because even Bruce freaking Wayne wouldn’t be as dumb as Lois and Clark were in this situation. Sure Oz was being controlled, but they still have every reason not to trust him. So yeah it IS out of character. Plus I hate the non-explanation for why they wanted to go in the first place. “Gain perspective” whatever that means.
    As a consequence none of the drama or pathos works because it’s all so forced and contrived.

  14. #6284
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Nah, I dont see this as being inconsistent. Clark grew up doing things that no modern parent would support or allow.
    Lol, remember Mon-El?

    Mon: "I have no idea who I am, but I have some super vague recollection of a 'Jor-El'"

    Clark: "well, you have powers, sooooo wanna be my big brother? I'm super lonely. You can even stay at my house with my soft, squishy, and easily killed human parents"

    Kents: "Seems legit."


    Or the Legion

    The Legion: "We're from the future, and we're super not supposed to be here, but we just wanted to say hi"

    Clark: "I'm super lonely, and you guys seem to be able to fly, sooooooo can I come with you to the future with seemingly no real assurance of me coming back home but the word of you fine strangers I've known for a grand total of five seconds?"

    Legion: "K"

    Clark to the Kents: "Hey so, after school I'm gonna being time traveling and going on life or death adventures around the galaxy. Might even fight in some large scale galatic conflicts or whatever."

    Kents: "Seems legit."


    I think Bendis should've used some of the space in Man of Steel or some of the space in the more superfluous issues of Superman (my pick would be issue 2 of Superman as the content of that issue could've been combined with issue 3) to speak more comprehensively on what dynamic he's looking do with Jor-El and Clark. We now have an idea, but I think it would've gone a long way to get us into Clark's head during Man of Steel. The idea and foundation are already firmly coming through with Clark saying "why do I always seem to have a blind spot when it comes to my father." That's very much in line with Lenoe's "broken boy" assessment, and it would've made her line that much more impacting in the Leviathan special, because we'd have an issue to point back to where Clark's blind spot for his family and his father, and his crippling fear of being alone lead him to something that has drastically changed his life and the life of his family. Like I said, it's still there as both text and subtext in the actual run, but an issue would've really sold it and elevated the apparent main ideas of the run.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-01-2019 at 08:33 PM.
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  15. #6285
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    The problem is not specifically Jor-El being last seen committing mass terrorism. Obviously we expect a little ease on the child safety standards in a universe with Robin existing. But even then it doesn’t work because even Bruce freaking Wayne wouldn’t be as dumb as Lois and Clark were in this situation. Sure Oz was being controlled, but they still have every reason not to trust him. So yeah it IS out of character. Plus I hate the non-explanation for why they wanted to go in the first place. “Gain perspective” whatever that means.
    As a consequence none of the drama or pathos works because itÂ’s all so forced and contrived.
    But they *do* have context to trust him. Clark has access to the Fortress' database so he's seen Jor-El records; papers published, headlines, criminal record, whatever. As the planet's lead scientist I'm sure there was plenty to document. Clark also has personal recordings and interactive holograms programmed with Jor-El's personality and memories that he's spent a lot of time with. Clark has stories from Kara, who knew Jor-El as a (albeit estranged) uncle. Not to mention the fact that Jor sent Clark into space to save him in the first place. Clark hasn't spent any real time at all face-to-face with his father, but Clark really does have reason to believe he knows a good deal about Jor-El. Obviously he didn't know everything (like the fact that Jor is mentally ill) and obviously all that kicked him in the ass, but for Clark? This was pretty standard parenting. The fact that it was a mistake to let Jon go (given how things turned out) isn't a mistake in the writing, it's Clark and Lois making a mistake because they're really flawed and far from perfect parents who have habitually made questionable choices with their son.

    The only real logic jump, and it's not even a huge one given what the life of an El is like, is what happened to Jor after he disappeared. That's most definitely a question Clark and Lois should've and would've been asking. Whether Bendis could actually answer that question because of Doomsday Clock or not, it should've been addressed *somehow.* But that's really the only chink in the character work.

    Like I've said, this whole thing needed to be fleshed out more to really sell it, but it's all there, like Superlad said, in the text as well as subtext. I never thought I'd say this about Bendis but he should've given this story an extra issue to breathe. But the structure? Far as I'm concerned it all tracks with what I expect from Superman. I'm sorry you (and others) aren't enjoying it. I'd rather everyone were happy with the titles. But saying its out of character? Nah, I dont see it. Clark's a loving but irresponsible parent. >shrug<
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