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  1. #6556
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If so I still say this is a good move. I've said it a thousand times and I'll say it again, the public face of Clark Kent should NOT be one which is envied by his peers. That so wildly misses the point. If you know the real Clark Kent, you know he's not a loser, but only a few know for obvious reasons. Bendis will get crap for this but the reality is he's one of the few writers who is proving he gets what the dual identity was for in the first place.

    I still think this can be worked out to not make Clark look like a total victim, but even if so I'll be fine. Its just too bad its taken this long, and that it had to be to accommodate marriage/children stuff.
    Yeah it’s interesting. So much of Post Crisis was starting to make Clark this well-respected person even though like you said, that sort of runs counter to how the character is supposed to be. Like Bruce Wayne, billionaire playboy, Clark Kent is kind of supposed to be viewed as a loser.

  2. #6557
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Clark is a mild mannered reporter, inconspicuously Superman. This doesn't expand on the character as originally created, it just makes Lois look bad.

    I have been trying not to judge without the bigger picture and I don't even have the issue yet, but it's pretty bad. I kinda hope Bendis stops putting her in his stories when Rucka starts going. Or maybe the latter just helps him workshop the way he writes her.
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  3. #6558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The problem with this angle is that it inevitably plays into the misogyny towards Lois that both writers and fandom are extremely famous for. And I know the response is going to be “well it doesn’t have to be that way blah blah blah” but the reality is that, historically, very few writers actually have shown the ability to handle this kind of thing without being unfair to her and fandom, which remains extremely sexist on the whole (sorry it’s just the reality) is not charitable towards her and never has been.

    Do I think this kind of thing could be handled in a way that’s fair to Lois? I mean....maybe? Rucka will definitely try and he is definitely one of the only people I’m remotely comfortable with given that his love and loyalty to Lois and to female readers runs deep. But on the whole? This kind of angle is extremely messy and plays right into the fandom perception that Lois already battles (unfairly) that she “doesn’t deserve” Clark/Superman. It also paints her as a jezebel to the public in a way that, again, is uncomfortable given that Lois is a female character who has battled people unfairly and misogynistically calling her a “slut” and “w****”

    It’s just playing with fire with the reputation of a female character that is so often on the receiving end of a lot of abuse and misogyny. That’s all I’m saying, guys.

    Frankly, I would like to see Rucka let Lois say that whoever she sleeps with is no one’s business as we certainly let powerful men get away with a heck of a lot and the double standards towards women and their sex lives are gross and unfair.
    This is likely because I don't know a lot about this fandom, but I don't exactly understand the problem between readers.

    Readers know Lois isn't cheating her husband. So, why this will give them a bad impression about Lois?

  4. #6559
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I have been trying not to judge without the bigger picture and I don't even have the issue yet, but it's pretty bad. I kinda hope Bendis stops putting her in his stories when Rucka starts going. Or maybe the latter just helps him workshop the way he writes her.
    All of the story regarding Lois so far, and specifically the stuff about the Superman/Lois kiss was and continues to be workshopped with Rucka. Bendis and Rucka have strongly alluded to this, and have sometimes even outright said it. It was reaffirmed in part two of the Bendis Tapes.

    Rucka has specifically talked about how he'll be writing the blow back from the kiss, and how it what the public will be saying about Lois and Superman. He went on to saying that he'll be exploring how some in the public will look at Lois as if she's some sort of temptress who fooled a pure and unsuspecting Superman into the kiss.

    So, what you're seeing in 1012 seems to be very much in line with what Rucka will be tackling, and the angle he'll be coming at it from.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  5. #6560
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The problem with this angle is that it inevitably plays into the misogyny towards Lois that both writers and fandom are extremely famous for. And I know the response is going to be “well it doesn’t have to be that way blah blah blah” but the reality is that, historically, very few writers actually have shown the ability to handle this kind of thing without being unfair to her and fandom, which remains extremely sexist on the whole (sorry it’s just the reality) is not charitable towards her and never has been.

    Do I think this kind of thing could be handled in a way that’s fair to Lois? I mean....maybe? Rucka will definitely try and he is definitely one of the only people I’m remotely comfortable with given that his love and loyalty to Lois and to female readers runs deep. But on the whole? This kind of angle is extremely messy and plays right into the fandom perception that Lois already battles (unfairly) that she “doesn’t deserve” Clark/Superman. It also paints her as a jezebel to the public in a way that, again, is uncomfortable given that Lois is a female character who has battled people unfairly and misogynistically calling her a “slut” and “w****”

    It’s just playing with fire with the reputation of a female character that is so often on the receiving end of a lot of abuse and misogyny. That’s all I’m saying, guys.

    Frankly, I would like to see Rucka let Lois say that whoever she sleeps with is no one’s business as we certainly let powerful men get away with a heck of a lot and the double standards towards women and their sex lives are gross and unfair.
    Execution really is everything with this storyline. From what has been said, Rucka was involved in the conception of it back when Bendis was in the hospital and it's all been in service of setting up Lois' book as well. So that leaves me with some optimism for it all. Rucka has said his side of it is going to address the way powerful women are treated in society and the double standards that that entails, so in a way we could see Lois' history of mistreatment by the fandom being used as a lens to explore these issues.

    So it is possible if not likely this is going to be a statement on that toxic side of the fandom that holds those views. It's essentially placing them in the overt role of being the obvious bad guys here. This could actually flip things around on them. If any of them had the self awareness to realize it.

    As for the endgame of it all. I don't think it's going to play out with a Lois "leaving" Clark for "Superman". I think Clark will be shown to be Jon's "stepfather" if anything. The kiss can be explained or ignored by them as a way to address it. And it's even possible that this picture will not be published. The way Trish showed it Robinson and the context seemed almost like see was seeking advice from her on what to do with it. Superman saved her life not to long ago and her life was put in danger by someone who called her out for running stories without thinking of the consequences. So there's that angle to explore as well.

  6. #6561
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I know it's a copout, but we operate in a universe where clones, doppelgangers, holograms, mind control and so much more are commonplace. I'm not saying I want that, but this onion can unfold in so many ways we really don't have any idea which way it's going to. I'm waiting to see how it goes before I really weigh in.

    ... Buuuut I hate the idea of Lois dressing down the public for letting men get away with adultery but women don't. That's a double standard, but one that should be dealt with by condemning men who cheat, not by condoning anyone, and it would forever make Lois unsympathetic to say "yeah, I cheated. Not your business, and frankly you all wouldn't care if I was a man, so shut it." For what it's worth, I think Lois herself would push less for acceptance of that practice herself and more to holding everyone accountable. It's literally an abusive practice, why would she plant her heels defending her right to do it? I don't think she would even justify her actions that way. If anything, the Clark step-dad thing makes a lot more sense.
    Have I lost touch with her character or something?


    It's a delicate issue and going to be hard for Bendis to land without doing too much damage to the parties involved.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-26-2019 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #6562
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    As for the endgame of it all. I don't think it's going to play out with a Lois "leaving" Clark for "Superman". I think Clark will be shown to be Jon's "stepfather" if anything. The kiss can be explained or ignored by them as a way to address it. And it's even possible that this picture will not be published. The way Trish showed it Robinson and the context seemed almost like see was seeking advice from her on what to do with it. Superman saved her life not to long ago and her life was put in danger by someone who called her out for running stories without thinking of the consequences. So there's that angle to explore as well.
    Part of me is thinking that when they explain everything, the kiss will be explained as Superman looking for comfort in the mother of his child while his son was away, and forgetting himself, and forgetting her marriage with Clark for that moment. I'm especially thinking Superman will take the heat because it'll play against the whole "temptress Lois and good boy Superman" thing. Plus, in issue 1004 it was Superman who went in for it, and it was Lois who pointed out that people where around. You just embellish the truth of that. That said, I don't think it'll matter to the people of Metropolis that Superman owns up to it, and I think that'll be part of the story and commentary.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-26-2019 at 02:13 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #6563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    It's a delicate issue and going to be hard for Bendis to land without doing too much damage to the parties involved.
    He doesn't care about damage. I'd wager he probably doesn't think any of this is damaging at all.

    This is just another step on the road to the new status quo; the characters' actions, whatever they will be, are simply to serve Bendis's story.

  9. #6564
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    He shouldn't see it as damage. Its certainly not automatically so by any stretch of the imagination. There are many ways for this to become a compelling storyline that doesn't damage any one character. Of course it won't be constant and consistent bliss, and anything less than that can be defined as damage by some, so what "damage" means is certainly relative.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-26-2019 at 02:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  10. #6565
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Since we're talking about Rucka, Lois, and Bendis....

    From Lois Lane issue 1.



    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #6566
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Okay so, I've listened to the first part of the interview twice now to really confirm my feelings, and I very much feel like this Legion idea with Jon is extremely elegant in its simplicity, and just overall inspired.

    Just to recap: Bendis is openly calling this his "Ultimate Legion of Super-Heroes" in the same style of his Ultimate Spider-Man.
    I gotta be honest, Im not gonna be happy if Clark's time with the Legion is erased from his history and given to Jon. I am all for Jon being in the Legion. Hell yes to that. Jon "stealing" that era from Clark? Not so much.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #6567
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'll be right with you. That would be some bull and a half to do that.

    As for that preview....already groaning at the Trump shot. Don't need to be reminded about him in my entertainment. Use your own social media for that Rucka, please don't use Lois as your overt political mouthpiece.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-26-2019 at 02:56 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  13. #6568
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I gotta be honest, Im not gonna be happy if Clark's time with the Legion is erased from his history and given to Jon. I am all for Jon being in the Legion. Hell yes to that. Jon "stealing" that era from Clark? Not so much.
    I don't imagine some people on here will be too jazzed about that, but I honestly think it's for the best, and more in line with what the sensibilities of what Superboy & The Legion of Super-Heroes were at the time of their creation. Just to get into it really quick: Superboy was the very first example of an "Ultimate Universe" character. He was specifically made as an soft update to Superman so he could appeal more to children. His continuity with his older self was rather incidental, and almost never the point. It lead more to Superman himself playing continuity catch-up rather than Superboy ever having to acquiesces to anything more than the idea that he'll one day be old enough to be called Superman, and he'll be awesome. He retconed in Lois, Lex, and Mxy. He adding in Pete and Lana, and made the Kents supporting characters. Is it really any wonder at all that the Kents never died Post-crisis given the fact that the kids who grew up with the more relatable Superboy were now making the comics?

    So, in this day and age where Superman's origin has been beat deader than the horse it came in on, I think they're just done dealing with it for a while. They're taking a Superboy who doesn't have a predetermined future, and can be the Superboy of this generation, and they're putting him on a team that's specifically about playing to the sensibilities of a modern generation. They want no baggage in what they'll be able to do with Superboy or this Legion. They want that to be the foundation they build this Legion off of, thus it's the "Ultimate Legion" while still be in continuity. It's smart, even if it'll sting a bit for some on here.

    That said, I wouldn't mind an adventure where Jon and the Legion meet his dad when he was a boy, and he's an honorary member. But I wouldn't lose sleep as a fan of Superman and perspective fan of the Legion who wants to see this thing go the distance. I think it's for the best.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-26-2019 at 02:59 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #6569
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I gotta be honest, Im not gonna be happy if Clark's time with the Legion is erased from his history and given to Jon. I am all for Jon being in the Legion. Hell yes to that. Jon "stealing" that era from Clark? Not so much.
    Yeah, I like that the Legion was his version of the neighborhood kids he got into trouble with over the summer, Sandlot style.

    I really hope that doesn't translate to people constantly comparing him to his dad. It's sure to happen a bit, but I really don't want Jon to just be Clark-lite.

  15. #6570
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    If they wanted to say, make this a new version of the Legion different than the one Clark had adventures with, fine. There's been no shortage of reboots to do something like that like, similar to how Johns tried to make sense of it all years ago. If its just simply the one and only Legion, this is the first Superman's seen of them before and they want Jon...I'll be honest it'll make me want to drop the books in protest. That's how offensive the very idea is to me. There is no spinning that as a good thing for the mythos. It'll be dumbing down the very history of Superman to give a piece of it to his damn kid. Not even Tomasi ever went that far. I hope this is misinterpretation of his intent.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-26-2019 at 03:02 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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