Official : Bendis gets both books

[Ra-El]

Sure it worked so well the first time.

Better than Marvel, where they would just pretend it never happened, like Sins Past, and hope the fans forget it. Until some writer decide to "fix it" and bring everything back.

[DragonPiece]

The thing is though the readership still never saw any of this. Basically all we had was that Convergence mini, and even that was quickly relegated to meaningless out-of-continuity status. Beyond that, we still never got to actually experience any of it.We were still essentially thrown into Superman and Lois being the parents of a ten year old. There was a lot that was bypassed in terms of growth and characterization for Clark and Lois all in the name of getting a young kid in there so they could brand him Superboy as quickly as possible and give Damian a playmate right now.

True, I know Jurgens said he wanted to explore that, sad he never got the chance to.

[Superlad93]

The thing is though the readership still never saw any of this. Basically all we had was that Convergence mini, and even that was quickly relegated to meaningless out-of-continuity status. Beyond that, we still never got to actually experience any of it.We were still essentially thrown into Superman and Lois being the parents of a ten year old. There was a lot that was bypassed in terms of growth and characterization for Clark and Lois all in the name of getting a young kid in there so they could brand him Superboy as quickly as possible and give Damian a playmate right now.

But them having a kid in real time, and then us seeing them bring him up in, again, real time was basically impossible before the New 52. Clark, Lois, Bruce, Barry, Dick, Damian, Conner, and Kara would've all had to age up by 10 years.

The only way to really do it without totally upending the DCU would be a reboot. Basically what they ended up doing with Reborn's timeline should've been what the New 52 was if you really wanted to see things go from relatively ground up. Basically Morrison's 5 years earlier Action would've been about the early days of Superman, but then move up a few years to show that 5 years in he marries Lois and they have Jon.

Other than that, I can't really fathom what else DC could've done short of pull a Damian and drop a 9 year old in Superman's lap, or pull a Chris and again drop a 9 year old in Superman's lap.

[Sacred Knight]

Well that's the rub, for me I never would have done it with that end in mind in the first place. I would have made them parents on account of a desire to write them as parents. Jon was created mainly out of a desire for a new Superboy first and foremost. So my entire approach starts from a different aim. There's no worry about immediately aging everyone else because aging the child isn't even a remote priority. As the years go by you could get away with small incremental aging. Which in of itself would never result in him aging fast enough to be a kid superhero at any point in the near future still, but again that was never the point with me when I wanted them to have a kid back in the day. But that was how I always imagined it. I think it could have been fun and rewarding. In the end they chose a different path, and it appears to be working, for as hackneyed and unappealing as I may find it.

[Superlad93]

That's why, to me, its just a bad idea all around. Don't worry about needing a new Superboy. We already had a Superboy anyway, who was quite popular. Give Superman and Lois a child on account of the desire to write them as parents, as opposed to a desire to create a new kid superhero. Then there's no worry about immediately aging everyone else because aging the child isn't even a remote priority. As the years go by you could get away with small incremental aging. Which in of itself would never result in him aging fast enough to be a kid superhero at any point in the near future still, but again that was never the point with me when I wanted them to have a kid back in the day. But that was how I always imagined it. I think it could have been fun and rewarding. In the end they chose a different path, and it appears to be working, for as hackneyed and unappealing as I may find it.

But they wanted both, and they've gotta both, and, like you say, it's worked out like gangbusters. It's gained Superman fans new and old, brought about one of the best breakout characters this decade, and brought rise to what's possibly DC's most popular team right now. Doing it during a particularly pliable time in DC's timeline is kind of the best move possible. They basically got a redo of the New 52 in terms of clearing the slate and setting the stage.

In my opinion, if they were to have just given Superman a small child that did nothing but allowed him to be called a father, then there'd be far less narrative strength to it. Franklin and Val have gained far more popularity and interesting after being part of Future Foundation than before it when they were just to kids that let Reed and Sue say they were parents. Superman having to stop off and get pampers after fighting Lex is less interesting to me than Superman having to occasionally show his 10 year old Superboy proper flying turning technique.

[Sacred Knight]

Fair enough. While its beyond silly that things were so pliable in the first place, that they let it get to that point, that it was in the first place definitely opened a door. So I don't disagree, except on the idea of it gaining Superman new fans. At least numbers wise. Superman's numbers haven't gone up exponentially. They're pretty steady right now, but that's steady in regards to what's the norm for Superman, which isn't that impressive and hasn't been for going on two decades now. I'm not seeing anything to suggest a huge influx, much less an influx that can be directly attributed to Jon. He's helping DC a lot in his merit as an individual character, or, at the very least, in his duo with Damian. Is he helping the two flagship Superman titles and thus Superman himself? I'm not at all convinced there.

In the end it all comes back to what one wants out of Superman. And he's so old, has had so many different interpretations, that it varies between the individual fan what they want. Hence all the different answers in the "definitive" thread. If I had to pick between a story staunchly focused on a Superman and Lex fight with the ending being Superman picking up essentials for the baby, or Superman teaching his ten year old son how to fly, I'm taking the former. But of course DC doesn't, and shouldn't, cater to just me. That's just a window into my tastes.

[Superlad93]

Fair enough. While its beyond silly that things were so pliable in the first place, that they let it get to that point, that it was in the first place definitely opened a door

Well that was purposeful. The timeline was a bit vague in the new 52, but also pretty obvious. It wasn't until after Convergence that they starting changing the established timeline, and by that point it's admitted that they were planing on doing all the Rebirth stuff.

So I don't disagree, except on the idea of it gaining Superman new fans. At least numbers wise. Superman's numbers haven't gone up exponentially.

But we're on a site where I can turn and pick out at least 3 new fans that came on with Rebirth. And reading through Tomasi's farewell tweets I saw a bunch of people explaining that this is where they started with Superman. I can't speak to the numbers, but I know for a fact there have been new Superman fans because of Rebirth.

[Frontier]

Superman's evolution has been more like that old movie, 'Evolution', where the evolution is disastrous.

That was a bad movie.

Didn't Fox Kids make a cartoon out of that movie ?

We have yet to see the big twists Bendis keeps talking about, so while he'll look traditional and the main cast will be there, we still don't know enough yet to guarantee this will be a traditional run.

I think if the twist is that if there was someone who instigated the destruction of Krypton (probably that new villain Bendis was teasing), we'll have a big twist and a core focus for the titles but not something that I think will detract from a traditional run.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm sure there have been new fans gained, I'd never claim otherwise. You get new fans for any new initiative. You also lose some too. Rinse and repeat. I'm just saying the true gauge on things, your bottom line, is sales. As opposed to the leanings of any one community or a grouping of tweets. And in regards to that bottom line, Superman's titles haven't received anything in the realm of a consistent exponential bump at all, to be attributed to much anything at all, be it Jon or something else. The temporary bump it did receive was due to the allure of the new initiative, which like initiative allures, fades, as we've seen here. I'm comfortable saying Jon is popular. I'm comfortable saying his shared title with Damian is popular. I'm not at all comfortable making the claim he's boosted Superman's titles.

[The Dying Detective]

There's nothing "wrong" with it. It's just not how he's typically been written and characterized and the lack of a transition to this new role was jarring.

I feel like we missed out on a lot of story potential by skipping the "growing pains" of Clark accepting fatherhood. We basically went from a Clark who would take his only living relative and dump her with a bunch of strangers on a island that's impossible to reach, to a Clark who is practically a perfect father living a very "Norman Rockwell Americana" type of family life. That's a pretty big shift in his character, and it just happened all at once, with no development or build up.

I like Jon. I like Clark as a father (though its written as a little *too* Americana for my tastes). I actually started wanting to see the Kents have a kid in 06. But its not a role that would've come naturally to Clark, and DC ignoring that (or more likely, not even realizing it) cost us some fun stories.

That is understandable though one guy I know complained that he didn't like Jon and Damian simply because he felt that it takes away the fantasy I am not even sure what that even means.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I think the reason why Jurgens and Tomasi were chosen was not to drastically overhaul Superman or even take everything in bold new direction, but to restabilize the character after, frankly about 7 years ( last two of Post-crisis, 5 years of New 52) where a succession of " bold new direction"s one on top of one another left the character in a huge quagmire of nebulous continuity, inconsistent characterization and things that went no where.

It was a messy task, but I think while aside from Jon there was nothing really new and bold with Superman and his world the last two years, the character is in much more in a stable place sales wise and otherwise than he's been in a decade, which then allows Bendis to then take the next step and branching out, which I think was the purpose of putting stalwarts who had already worked on the character in the past on the character. Neither were intended to be for the long haul. They were placeholders.

I know why they were picked, I said all the same things when the teams were first announced. Back when some of us thought New 52 Superman's return was inevitable, I was actually glad about the teams because it would have meant that they would stabilize sales, bring in some consistency, and that others would take over with a different version of the character so that whatever damage was done with their poor writing would be character specific.

They stabilized sales as expected, but they stayed on the books too long. Reborn should have been their exit point, as Jurgens Action was selling less than Post-Morrison Action and it went up because of the crossover. Superman did better for longer but it also had to be helped with the Super Sons crossover. The stability they brought has been fading for some time now. Everything I was saying about sales performance, with the buildup to Action Comics #1000 acting as the final sales rise with the current teams is what' been going on with the books.

They were good for short term stability, but disastrous as the long term writers that would establish Superman in the DC Universe heading into the future.

[Kuwagaton]

This is ironic in a thread about the spearheading of Bendis, but I think all that decompression stuff is for the birds. Jon had a 16 issue arc going from the womb to becoming Superboy, which is longer than almost any character has taken to get up and running. His dad and cousin had a fraction of that combined.

[Ascended]

That is understandable though one guy I know complained that he didn't like Jon and Damian simply because he felt that it takes away the fantasy I am not even sure what that even means.

I dunno man. Everyone thinks that once kids enter the picture, life ends for the parents.

Its not the case. But a lot of people seem to think it is.

[DragonPiece]

Man of Steel #1 cover in color
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[Sacred Knight]

It needs to become standard that the belt loops are slightly slanted. I don't know why it looks good, but it does.