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  1. #6601
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    There's 2 more issue of Doomsday Clock left, SG says she's from the 30th century, Clark hasn't acknowledged if he does or doesn't know her or the Legion, and it's a story about continuity where continuity may not be the same after. Given the nature of the story she could literally be retconed out of existence by the end of the story or, what's more likely, she's actually the Saturn Girl of the silver and bronze age given a modern Clark's Legion would be from the 31st not 30th century.



    But that's not really going out of your way. It's legitimately just saying "hey, this is a new thing with no baggage. Jump in." And it's doing it for a property that's struggled like crazy to find an audience past its die-hards. It's an ip that's known to be nearly as impenetrable to get into as the X-Men, but with no where near the multimedia force behind it to sustain it. It's coming at prospective fans with 30-some-odd members and nearly just as many accompanying planets. It's also so far in the future. There's lot here to sell a new fan on. Putting up a clean rebooted jumping on point with no baggage seems appropriate and fair, I feel.
    The previous times they rebooted and disconnected the Legion from Clark didn’t work. Why would this attempt be any different? And Jon fans generally don’t like aged up Jon so I hardly think they’re going to be jumping on board with this. Also Bendis is not the guy who should be writing big sci-fi superhero teams, he has a bad previous record with his attempts at “reinventing” franchises. Again his GotG was one of the worst GotG runs.

    On a more positive note Bendis’ Action Comics issue today was great.

  2. #6602
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The previous times they rebooted and disconnected the Legion from Clark didn’t work. Why would this attempt be any different?
    That's not a very compelling argument though. The previous times they seem to have have rather bullheadly tried to keep their history in some way be it via pocket universe Superboys, or the Mon-El soft reboots, or clones, or alternate universes. In the New 52 they couldn't decide if anything was a reboot or not, and they largely refused to take things step by step from scratch. There was always this feeling that they needed to keep some form of their history from what I've been told and seen. At some point before that Johns made it all count including Clark before the New 52, but still till this point we've been out a Legion.

    To my knowledge, they've never just started competently from scratch Ultimate style, and then said "okay, lets take a whole new generation through it with these characters." Or at the very least not on this scale. So, yeah, I think there's a real shot here.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-26-2019 at 06:25 PM.
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  3. #6603
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm all for doing something new with the Legion itself in theory. Nothing since before the Crisis has worked. But its troubles started after removing Superman from its mythos. It may not have been the only factor in its downfall but it was certainly a huge one. I'd argue by far the biggest. So doing something new, cool. Doing something new that reincorporates the already massively failed idea of Superman being out as a member as a kid? History has already shown that doesn't work. I mean I get that via this set up he'll have a place but its at the expense of a huge aspect of the original appeal. That appeal is once again being refilled with a replacement. And Jon is just as much a poor man's replacement at that than the old and lame pocket universe Superboy attempt. Before we had the issue of just Jon fans being unhappy.

    I'm not going to actively root for this to fail. The Legion's failed so many times I don't how much more it can before its given up on for good. I don't want that. I'm just of the opinion that they are constantly and consistently missing the key piece to give it the best chance to rebuild a fanbase, and its happening again. Jon just ain't it. And its not just because I don't like him in particular.. I'm a Supergirl fan and I don't think making her the Super focus would work this time either. Its just a situation where I'm convinced you need the main man, at least until things are built back up again. So I won't be surprised if the end result this time is the same as reboots past.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-26-2019 at 06:38 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  4. #6604
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yeah, I'm all for doing something new with the Legion itself in theory. Nothing since before the Crisis has worked.. But its troubles started after removing Superman from its mythos. It may not have been the only factor in its downfall but it was certainly a huge one. I'd argue by far the biggest.
    I'd argue it's largely incidental, and more to do with a long time unwillingness to legitimately start from scratch, but rather just build a taller and thicker wall between perspective fans and the ip

    And I'm pretty sure the starting from scratch thing has been tried before. Pretty sure Threeboot started over from scratch.
    I'm think a combination of the time away from the Legion and it being from scratch will be the deciding factor. Speaking for myself, I remember seeing all the alternate Legion teams come together as one when I read the Legion and Titans crossover by Johns, and I remember avoiding the Legion hard because of that. Just seeing like 3 different versions of characters I don't even have a passing familiarity with fuse as one didn't nothing but build the wall thicker. The time away to let the ip cool off, and then just saying "this is its own totally new thing for this generation" feels more like something that has a shot.
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  5. #6605
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'd argue the fact that they had to find some way early on to create some type of Superboy facsimile into the post-Crisis mythos is evidence it was far from incidental. I'd also cite as evidence to the contrary in the popularity of Johns' Superman and the Legion of Superheroes, which had Johns restoring the classic elements (its been a long time since I've argued for Johns in a Superman-related discussion, how weird). That was getting the concept momentum again but then of course fell apart because no one direction stays long at DC, for good or bad.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  6. #6606
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'd argue the fact that they had to find some way early on to create some type of Superboy facsimile into the post-Crisis mythos is evidence it was far from incidental.
    But that was literally only a thing because they didn't want to reboot the Legion like everything else. They made that work around specifically because they wanted those older stories to still be an active part of their history. Had that not been the priority, there'd be no need for the pocket Superboy. The pocket Superboy was only a symptom of the true issue that was building a wall between perspective fans.

    I'd also cite as evidence to the contrary in the popularity of Johns' Superman and the Legion of Superheroes, which had Johns restoring the classic elements (its been a long time since I've argued for Johns in a Superman-related discussion, how weird). That was getting the concept momentum again but then of course fell apart because no one direction stays long at DC, for good or bad.
    But, it didn't last. I don't even think they moved that take beyond a feature in Adventure Comics. Johns' reboot didn't magically make the Legion more approachable because it now had the implication that everything counted. I'd argue that you may primarily think it was good momentum because it conformed to what you wanted in some respect: Clark as Superboy and part of the team.

    I feel like it's objectively simple to say that it's easier to get into a thing if it looks like it's of the time, has zero baggage, and is being created right then and there.

    I mean, c'mon dude. It's an ip about a team that has a minimum of a couple dozen active characters.....and it's set in the future. That's so inherently hard to wrap your head around that adding volumes of history puts it over the top.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-26-2019 at 07:16 PM.
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  7. #6607
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I've always said that what I believed the Legion needed was to start back at its roots again and build its way back up. Not just get a solo title again as those kept failing. I believe the success of the Lightning Saga/Superman and the LOSH/Legion of 3 Worlds didn't reap any different a reward was because they once again jumped right back into a solo. Could I just be colored by my personal enjoyment of that time? Perhaps. But I recall it being quite popular. Even so, I still don't think it was at the point yet to support it going back on its own so to speak; I think it needed to be fostered further by more Superman involvement. Couple that with the fact they then gave the book back to Levitz. With all due respect of course to his past major success, was at the time a completely safe pick hoping to bank on an old voice. Problem was he'd turned in his best work long ago and it turned out he didn't have much else to say with the group. That's just my belief though, I can't prove doing it my way would have worked better, so just agree to disagree there.

    If this succeeds, it could put to rest my theory that a lack of a strong Superman influence was necessary to get it back on its feet. Time will tell. Even if it does work out though it won't make me any more accepting of it though, personally.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-26-2019 at 07:35 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #6608
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Like I said in a previous post, I'm sure the door is totally left open for Jon and the Legion to visit a younger Clark and make him a member in some respect. I think that'd be a nice thing moment. But I don't see it as a priority for the Legion and Jon if this thing is starting from scratch.
    I think it would be cool for Jon to meet a teen version of his dad with the Legion. But I also don't think taking it out necesarilly needed to happen to start from scratch.
    Had this been more of a reintroduction or continuation like in post-crisis, then I'd vote harder for the need for young Clark. But it's a straight up reboot, so I'm hard pressed to see the point in going out the way to add that if not *just* for Superman's benefit alone. I think he'll survive.
    There's no doubt he'll survive. He's Superman. I just think it's an important element of Superman and the Legion's relationship, and Clark's younger years, that I'd rather see be kpet.

    As far as a reboot...I mean, when has DC ever been able to fully reboot a property? There's always going to be a creator or something that comes in to bring old continuity/elements back (which I guess to some is a silver lining and a con to others).

    I know Bendis has experience with that kind of approach with Ultimate Spider-Man but I'm not sure if he can pull that off in today's comics climate and on a book that would ordinarily be very outside his wheelhouse as far as his writing ability. Especially when it will probably devolve into what the other Legion reboots did of just doing it's own take on stuff that happened in old Legion stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    The time away to let the ip cool off, and then just saying "this is its own totally new thing for this generation" feels more like something that has a shot.
    I agree it's probably the best shot for the Legion right now, even if it's also kind of an overused cliche for a relaunch/reboot.

    But it's all going to rely on execution and, probably, new and old Legion fans coming back to read the book. Relying on Bendis' name alone definitely isn't a reliable option in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If this succeeds, it will put to rest my theory that a lack of a strong Superman influence was necessary to get it back on its feet. Time will tell. Even if it does work out though it won't make me any more accepting of it though, personally.
    Honestly, if they're going to try and shift Jon into Clark's role and importance on the Legion, then I don't think that would necessarily work against your theory. Which just goes to show how major a Superman character is to the Legion.

  9. #6609
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If this succeeds, it will put to rest my theory that a lack of a strong Superman influence was necessary to get it back on its feet.
    To be fair I think the influence of Clark will still 100% be there. From what's been said so far, I don't think Jon is the inspiration for the team.

    Even if it does work out though it won't make me any more accepting of it though, personally.
    And that's totally fair. Not everything has to be for everyone, right?
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  10. #6610
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I just think it's an important element of Superman and the Legion's relationship, and Clark's younger years, that I'd rather see be kpet.
    That's fair. No one can argue what your taste can and can't be.

    I agree it's probably the best shot for the Legion right now, even if it's also kind of an overused cliche for a relaunch/reboot.
    Speaking just for myself, I think holding off may have been for the better. It's given me time away from the concept popping up here and there to build a bit of a longing for the general idea of it.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


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    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  11. #6611
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Speaking just for myself, I think holding off may have been for the better. It's given me time away from the concept popping up here and there to build a bit of a longing for the general idea of it.
    Well, they say absence make the heart grow fonder, but then you just have to hope that the version they bring back fills the hole of what you missed .

  12. #6612

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    Honestly, i have always said bendis should have created a whole new generation of legion for jon. Introduce the legacy aspect to the legion. Have clark and the legion be mentor, teachers or parents to the new gen. Clark can appear as guest in the books to show jon the ropes.
    And i firmly believe erasing Clark's history with the legion is a mistake. Clark's time as the first superboy needs to reestablished. Rebirth was about acknowledging the history of character, not erasing it.
    As for clark kent persona being used as just a tool and dragged through the mud. I hate it. I don't want people calling clark cuck or whatever. Poor clark shit needs to end. Clark kent persona should be more than just a freaking tool for real clark to have a life. this just encourages the notion that clark kent persona is "just a critic of humanity" , which i absolutely despise. Making superman that arrogant would ruin the character for me. I #respecttheglasses too much for this nonsense.I like clark kent persona more than real clark kent, who has got it all.that wouldn't be much of a choice for me.
    About lois leaving clark for superman. Who cares? Clark kent persona would be branded a cuck for taking back lois so easily by the public and audience . After she left him, had a close encounter with her ex and her saying jon is his son. I am not going to start on how bad lois will look after this.oh yeah! And superman will and should officially have a home wrecker status. I would want the superbooks to show the press and the paparazzi hound superman for it, if this thing is happening . But, i don't think it will happen. The superman persona will be of the hook easily as always.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-27-2019 at 04:55 AM.

  13. #6613
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    I'm gonna ignore the Miles comment and people's incessant need to diminish the character when he's under Bendis pen or diminish what Bendis has done for and with the character and act like Miles is where he is today b/c other writers somehow know how to write a character better than their creator does and as if these other writers never sat down with Bendis to have convos on what they can build up more.

    I'm gonna ignore all of that and instead focus on this Legion discussion and ask people in here what parts of this Legion revival do they think is editorial and what parts do they think is Bendis.

    From what Bendis said on Twitter he was offered Legion when he was still at Marvel, unfortunately none of that necessarily means that DC editorial had a plan beyond what writer they wanted, so do people think all of this is Bendis idea or do you think DC had plan when Bendis finally joined.

    I would personally say rebooting (kind of) the Legion is editorial, putting Jon on Legion is Bendis, possibly erasing Superman's history with Legion is both, and streamlining DC's future is editorial is editorial but it could be kind of a toss up.

  14. #6614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That's not totally true though. Melody is a totally new character who has no preconceptions associated with her, and Jon is a character with no predetermined future milestones that need to be it or adhered to going forward. But you use the character with the character with the S for the recognition.
    But the idea of the Ultimate Universe was that it was free from past continuity. Including characters who have any history runs counter to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    To be fair, that wasn't really the point of my post, and maybe a bit dismissive of what he ended up accomplishing on that book. All I'm saying is that he need to bring it on this one. That's it.
    Well, yeah, but the sales haven't been mind-blowing on anything he's down for DC so far save Naomi, so I'm not sure there's much chance of that happening. He can't afford to alienate any fanbase on this one.
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  15. #6615
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But I wouldn't lose sleep as a fan of Superman and perspective fan of the Legion who wants to see this thing go the distance. I think it's for the best.
    It might be best for the Legion, possibly for Jon. I'm not at all convinced its best for Clark, who is my main priority.

    I wont be surprised if Bendis does a solid job with this. It plays to some of his strengths (though he struggles with cosmic), and if this is a new reboot Legion there's no continuity for him to screw up. So I might enjoy the hell out of the story (and I hope I do). But I dont think this is best for Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That said, as a fan of Superman with my sensibilities, I very much appreciate the idea that Bendis is doing everything in his power to still make Clark a big part of the Legion outside of Jon in the form him starting the United Planets in the modern day, and also still being the inspiration.
    All of that, I'm cool with. I never thought I'd see Clark actually start working on/with the United Planets, and I'm super hyped about that aspect of it. And if his presence is still very strongly felt in the Legion's ranks I *might* even consider it an even trade (I doubt it, but its possible if Bendis can hit the right notes). But this is still cutting out what I consider a big part of Clark's development as a character. Im not okay with that, DC does that enough already, as far as Im concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But what does this accomplish beyond the idea that Clark could verbalize "yeah, I used to hang out with a version of them."? This would be text book lip service.
    I think the Legion does a whole lot to advance and influence Clark's development. Its the first group of people Clark actually feels he can fully be himself around, it puts the idea of costumed superheroics in his head, and it plays to his optimism and big picture mentality. Clark doesn't just believe in a better tomorrow, he's seen it. He's confident that we'll get there because he already knows we do. And he's seen a much bigger, wider universe with the Legion, saw consequences play out across entire civilizations, which provides a big chunk of that "Superman" worldview and mindset. And the reason people in the DCU trust heroes so much is because Superman is so damn good at it and was from the very first day, and the reason he's so damn good at it is the Legion.

    I think without the Legion, there's a lot about Clark that doesn't make sense and you gotta jump those hurdles when the best answer is already there in front of you.

    Legion has been ignored far too often in Clark's origin these last thirty years, but it is a big damn deal. And I love the idea of Jon getting that same experience. I just dont like the idea of Jon getting that experience at Clark's expense.

    Just realized I only replied to your posts, Superlad. Not trying to single you out or anything man, you just brought up good points I wanted to hit back on. And Im glad you're so excited for this. And I hope that, in the end, I get to tell you that you were right the whole time. But come on man, you gotta admit this is a massive detraction.
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