Page 465 of 493 FirstFirst ... 365415455461462463464465466467468469475 ... LastLast
Results 6,961 to 6,975 of 7391
  1. #6961
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,916

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How is that connected to jon's existence? He says Jon's existence excuses Clark's paternalism . Which is a load of bullshit to me.
    Allow me to quote myself:

    However, even if some fans have come to love this specific era (and some of them aggressively defend it as some kind of unlikely lost golden age
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  2. #6962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Allow me to quote myself:
    People like what they like. Do as they please. Personally, i liked what i read in rebirth more than new 52 and the current bendis era.

  3. #6963
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    2,829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    The problem is you can't really enter in "Champion of the Opressed" without enter in a "morally ambiguous" territory.

    It would not necessarily be morally ambiguous for you or me, but it would be people who will find this morally ambiguous.

    As you said, people complaint about some of these aspects for Superman in New52.


    In itself, DC doesn't seem to want Superman explain what "do good" is for him (only a very basic level). Superman just do what is good.
    I don’t really see how that would be “morally ambiguous”. Politically divisive? Very possible and highly likely. But in that case Clark’s morals are pretty clear cut and we the readers can see where he stands on certain issues. Now to be clear: Not every issue of Superman somehow needs to be a Very Special Issue where he deals with some social issue facing America. Stuff like that really dates those old GL/GA issues where Hal and Ollie go across America. But I also don’t think we need to shy away from showing that Clark is not just about fighting for some nebulous idea of “good”. Clark has his own ideals on what constitutes “public good” and he’s not afraid to fight for those ideals even if people disagree.

  4. #6964
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,916

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Anyway, you can sign me up in agreement with basically everything Myskin (always good to see you man) is saying.
    Thanks man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    What would you say is one of the best Superman eras? Genuinely curious and you don’t post that often but I always find your posts interesting.
    I hadn't seen this question. Thanks for the kind words.
    Anyway, if I had to list the best eras in terms of starting points/ideas (I guess that you refer to postCrisis), I'd say all of them. I mean it. Loeb/Kelly, Johns/Busiek, New52, Tomasi/Jurgens and even Grounded; all of them started with interesting ideas which could have worked very well.
    In terms of execution, all of them failed. Every single era was a failure.

    I'd say that the era which was the most consistent and coherent one was the Byrne era (it is NOT my favorite one, but it had a very rich mythology), even if by today's standard a lot of things are dated (but hey, most of comic books from those days are dated); also, the Pocket Universe saga is far from flawless. Even the years which followed were relatively consistent (I have very foggy memories of them, but that's my impression), up to the Death of Superman saga which IMHO in the long distance did more harm than good to the character. Also: Jurgens' writing is very dated (well, personally speaking I found it dated 30 years ago, in the 1990s). But just to be clear, I repeat it: it was "the best" era because everything was very coherent from a narrative standpoint and there were not unreadable stories, but there were not qualitative peaks, either. In terms of quality, nothing from that era was Alan Moore/Frank Miller/Neil Gaiman level, but they were averagely readable comic books of the 1990s, even if I didn't like them very much.

    In terms of potential, I'd say that the one with the highest potential was Loeb/Kelly. For a very long list of reasons (including the cyberpunk feel) and also because there was a serious attempt at dealing with "ethical" problems and difficult themes when doing it still made sense and way before everything became a joke. President Luthor, the death of the American way of life, rogue states (Pokolistan), illness (at one point there was a strong suggestion that Pa Kent was suffering from Alzheimer's), social differences based on race (at one point they tried to introduce a Malcolm X-like superhero), homelessness and depression (the Lost Hearts saga). I am not saying that everything was good and well-done - quite the contrary, at the end of it all it failed like every other era for a long series of unfortunate causes - but Loeb and Kelly seriously believed in what they were doing. Months after 9/11 there was a very bold JLA issue by Joe Kelly about fake evidence of the existence of weapons of mass destruction (a clear allusion to G W Bush); the issue was literally RAVAGED by shortsighted readers and reviewers alike. Also the "peaks" are far from flawless - the classic Superman vs Elite story provides an excellent premise which doesn't get an equally good conclusion - but IMHO that era could have really changed Superman for the better and forever (and no, I don't think that the Superman 2000 pitch which never became a reality was THAT better than what he could have got with Loeb/Kelly).
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  5. #6965
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,057

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I don’t really see how that would be “morally ambiguous”. Politically divisive? Very possible and highly likely. But in that case Clark’s morals are pretty clear cut and we the readers can see where he stands on certain issues. Now to be clear: Not every issue of Superman somehow needs to be a Very Special Issue where he deals with some social issue facing America. Stuff like that really dates those old GL/GA issues where Hal and Ollie go across America. But I also don’t think we need to shy away from showing that Clark is not just about fighting for some nebulous idea of “good”. Clark has his own ideals on what constitutes “public good” and he’s not afraid to fight for those ideals even if people disagree.
    If Superman stands on one side in a politically divisive issue, that would probably be seen as "morally ambiguous" (at least) by people who don't support that side.

    Of course, the problem is that DC (and the fans) have put Superman as a high moral authority. So, they don't dare put him in a politically divisive situation.


    I mean a comic where Superman faces racism will appear soon and his enemy is the Ku Klux Klan. A group that everyone (rightfully) hates.
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-21-2019 at 07:52 AM.

  6. #6966
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    2,829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    If Superman stands on one side in a politically divisive issue, that would probably be seen as "morally ambiguous" (at least) by people who don't support that side.

    Of course, the problem is that DC (and the fans) have put Superman as a high moral authority. So, they don't dare put him in a politically divisive situation.


    I mean a comic where Superman faces racism will appear soon and his enemy is the Ku Klux Klan. A group that everyone (rightfully) hates.
    Not everyone. Did you see those comments on social media? Quite a few people were complaining about DC going all “leftist” on people with that book and demanding they make Supes fight Antifa. Like the two organizations are even close to equivalent. But it’s a testament to our current state of affairs that Supes fighting the Klan has become controversial (those people who complained can go screw themselves though).

    But honestly? I don’t really care if some people get mad. I care more about what I think makes sense for the character, and what lets him break out of this box the public has him trapped in. People already decry Superman as “boring” because he’s “perfect”, so why not tackle that head on? Not to appease the “he’s too perfect” naysayers, most of them are Batman fanboys who have never read a comic in their life and never will, but for those of us who are fans and don’t mind seeing a more aggressive hands on Supes that isn’t a crazy fascist.

    Writers and artists love to portray Metropolis as this wonderful place to live. Why can’t Supes be directly responsible for that? Something like there’s affordable public housing in Metropolis because Supes advocates for it. Stuff like how the New 52 Superman took down Glenmorgan is awesome to me, shows concrete results of how Supes is a positive force for the city.

  7. #6967
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,251

    Default

    Rebirth Superman was built on the whole milk toast Jordan Peterson "just clean your room and tell a bully to please stop" thing. I could practically hear him mumbling in his echo chamber to Jon about being a good boy, like he's commanding a room of golden retrievers.

    It's laughable at best but also detrimental to the character. A character who really isn't that. Superman needs a back bone and to be done with the vague niceties, it's time he stand for something.

    Superman radicalizing Metropolis. Kicking out landlords and facing down billionaires. Helping people who have fallen off their personal wagons, get back on. A Superman for 2019.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 08-21-2019 at 09:53 AM.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  8. #6968
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,916

    Default

    The whole premise of Superman facing more complex ethical challenges on a regular basis would be perfectly reasonable and in-character, but I think that nobody among us will see it become a reality within our lifetime. There are simply too many obstacles.
    Firstly, there are a lot of awful misconceptions and prejudices among the superhero fandom. "I don't want to see politics in my superhero books"; "Hey, sometimes a reader just wants to read an entertaining book without having to think" (as if there were TOO MANY complex, politically radical Superman comics out there...); "This is entertainment, it's not the place for complex ideas which the fandom wouldn't understand".
    The pillars of clever entertainment are moral and ethical choices that characters have to take. A lot of modern, extremely popular videogames are based on this topic. Heck, CW's The 100 TV series is more morally challenging than Superman. Hergé's Tintin, which is probably in the top 3 best comic book series for kids (AND adults) ever created, is more socially aware than average superhero books. I am sorry to say this, but these days I think that, with VERY few exceptions, superhero comics (Marvel and DC) are basically a dump where the worst trends of US entertainment industry are collected to be enjoyed by one of the most toxic fandom out there.

    Besides that, the problem is that Superman isn't a character and probably hasn't been for decades. It's more similar to a brand. For gadgets, movies (well, mostly flops, but still) and, I don't know, happy meals? The shallow morality which usually accompanies him within the stories ("Do the right thing" and such) is like McDonald's chips - they are supposed to contain sugar and salt in equal measure, in order to match every customer's taste. To me, finding this Superman inspirational is like choosing Ronald McDonald, or Coca Cola, as role models.

    Yes, it's a sad destiny which Superman shares with other characters. Sometimes I think that, in a better world, they should have just stopped publishing Superman stories; and Superman should have been taken out of his editorial limbo ONLY if someone had really found something interesting to say about him. It's not that uncommon. There are some pop culture characters, even older than Superman, who never really get old ONLY because - from time to time - someone finds a way to make them relevant again. I am thinking about Cumberbatch's Sherlock Holmes, for example. But there are more examples. It doesn't works every time (the most recent iteration of John Carter is a waste of money, unfortunately), but sometimes it works. Personally speaking, if I had to choose between the Superman stories and movies that we had in the latest 20 years and a graphic novel on the level of All-Star Superman every one-two years, I'd choose the latter alternative in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by Myskin; 08-21-2019 at 11:28 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  9. #6969

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Rebirth Superman was built on the whole milk toast Jordan Peterson "just clean your room and tell a bully to please stop" thing. I could practically hear him mumbling in his echo chamber to Jon about being a good boy, like he's commanding a room of golden retrievers.

    It's laughable at best but also detrimental to the character. A character who really isn't that. Superman needs a back bone and to be done with the vague niceties, it's time he stand for something.

    Superman radicalizing Metropolis. Kicking out landlords and facing down billionaires. Helping people who have fallen off their personal wagons, get back on. A Superman for 2019.
    "cleaning your room" takes a lot of time and effort. Especially, if you are a mess. I would highly dissapprove of any portrayals of 10 year old character being used like that. Jon will be quite frankly in over his head.Clark himself, i don't care. His chatacter was that of a sorted out
    20-30 year old man to begin with. That is just my opinion.
    Fine, you want clark to stand for something. What will that be? People are accussing previous runs of being vague. Well this is vague as it gets. You want a portrayel more akin to "champion of the oppressed". Someone, who is more left leaning. Want the comics to get more political. Ok. Fine. Then what about political nuances and its representation. It is a spectrum after all. Will other points of view get a chance to put forward anything? Here, i say anything because At the end of the day this is Clark's narrative and his book. Otherwise, you are just creating another echo chamber.

  10. #6970
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    3,375

    Default

    Oh man i was hoping that by giving it a few days i will be less angry about that preview. But somehow i am more p*ssed then before. So, much so in one fell swoop Bendis lowered my interest in two characters.

    Superman was never a member of Legion. That makes him a bit less Super as he did not have fantastic adventures when he was a teenager which played a part in forming him. For all my enjoyment of a more streamlined (read Post Crisis whose superheroics starts at Metropolis) backstory, i would prefer Legion to be connected to Superman. They are a part of DC. Might as well be connected to the guy himself.

    Next, Jon is on the way to becoming Superboy lite. Pre-Crisis Superboy. I would have welcomed such a development if it went in a way like this. Superman sends Jon to future, as he did so himself. It helped him be what he is. As a father he has taught almost everything he could. But Jon can learn a lot more from them.

    But no apparently Jon was the reason the future was saved, so Legion want him. I never said this before because i have loved the Superman family alongwith Jon, but i may not be completely against the idea of a reboot when it comes.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 08-22-2019 at 07:39 AM.

  11. #6971
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Oh man i was hoping that by giving it a few days i will be less angry about that preview. But somehow i am more p*ssed then before. So, much so in one fell swoop Bendis lowered my interest in two characters.

    Superman was never a member of Legion. That makes him a bit less Super as he did not have fantastic adventures when he was a teenager which played a part in forming him. For all my enjoyment of a more streamlined (read Post Crisis whose superheroics starts at Metropolis) backstory, i would prefer Legion to be connected to Superman. They are a part of DC. Might as well be connected to the guy himself.

    Next, Jon is on the way to becoming Superboy lite. Pre-Crisis Superboy. I would have welcomed such a development if it went in a way like this. Superman sends Jon to future, as he did so himself. It helped him be what he is. As a father he has taught almost everything he could. But Jon can learn a lot more from them.

    But no apparently Jon was the reason the future was saved, so Legion want him. I never said this before because i have loved the Superman family alongwith Jon, but i may not be completely against the idea of a reboot when it comes.
    I completely agree. This is just terrible. Its such a major disappointment, especially after the build up we wet seeing in rebirth with the promise of the legion coming back and the classic Saturn Girl's involvement. I can't solely blame Bendis, Johns has a lot of responsibilityfor this as well sincehe didn't finish doomsday clock. Once again I feel like I'm getting a Legion that has no respect for the actual history and origins of the concept. I never really liked Jon and I feel like he is an anomaly in-universe. I've never wanted another Crisis reboot so bad in my life! If they wanted to have superman have a child they should've earned it and not have shoehorned in an anomaly. They should've shown superman and lois chiming together in the new 52, Getting married again, and then having a child. DC has become such a mess! I liked where this story was going until we got there. I'm so let down.

  12. #6972
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    1,660

    Default

    Yeah, I think even if they do reboot - which I think it getting less and less likely with the way DC is going, the only thing that would likely do would be to cement Jon into the continuity and timeline even more firmly. Superboy as Superman & Lois Lane's kid is a really really simple pitch, especially in other contexts. That's why even Didio loves it, it allows for stuff like Super Sons (the DC Ink version), and stuff like what the CW is doing. The idea that it's to convoluted or the timeline is too difficult doesn't make sense to me either. It's all pretty straight forward unless you're obsessed with continuity. And most readers just aren't the way we are. They wouldn't be launching this this way if they intended to reboot it all next year with Snyder's Crisis. The JSA likely isn't coming back on this Rebirth Earth either from the sound of it.

    It's also obvious now why they aged him up to. Having him be older for these stories allows them to hit a lot more story types in the Wonder Comics age bracket which Legion seems to be aiming for even though it's not Wonder Comics, including love interests and stuff, that you just can't really do with a 10 year old.

    And really, I kinda have to think the backstory of the Legion just doesn't matter to most readers. It's background noise. Having a Superboy in there probably doesn't really matter either, but this is an attempt to update the traditional version using the current Superboy and it keeps things generally in the Superman family. The inspiration is coming from the heroic age, which is kinda how it was even back in John's reboot if I recall correctly. DC probably loves the idea of being able to tie it into Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, etc. It broadens the appeal. If anything, Clark's origin just isn't going to have Superboy in it anymore. That's been the case for all but like 3 of the last 35 years. Even in the New 52 Morrison ended up erasing the Legion from his past like the rest of the pre-crisis history.
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-22-2019 at 09:11 AM.

  13. #6973
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    2,829

    Default

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B1ejsh7B...d=ur5l9nbzvkps

    Up coming art from Kevin Macguire.

  14. #6974
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Outstanding!

    Not only is it some phenomenal work by Macguire, but from what we can tell it seems to straight up be Clark putting in the work of brokering peace deals and stopping interplanetary conflicts to make the idea of the UP a reality.

    I like this as a tangible thing to be worked on in service of better tomorrow.

    Hope we get info on "Earth President Superman" soon!
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-22-2019 at 02:20 PM.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


    -Coffee That

    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  15. #6975
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    12,648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Outstanding!

    Not only is it some phenomenal work by Macguire, but from what we can tell it seems to straight up be Clark putting in the work of brokering peace deals and stopping interplanetary conflicts to make the idea of the UP a reality.

    I like this as a tangible thing to be worked on in service of better tomorrow.

    Hope we get info on "Earth President Superman" soon!
    Were there more pages than the one I saw? Because what I saw looked like Clark breaking up a fight.

    I mean, yeah maybe that's negotiating a peace deal.....but from the one page I saw that could also be the space bar where Lobo hangs out and Clark's trying to stop two guys from fighting over a girl or something.

    Also.....what the hell happened to the last few pages of this thread?
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •