Official : Bendis gets both books

[Superlad93]

This isn't confusing at all.

If it is indeed the new timeline, then I imagine all you'll need to know is that the heroes have been around for a good long while.

So, in simpler terms with crises they kept starting all over again, even if they started way back. Is it for heroes alone or for other characters as well? Is Perry White 100 years old?

For everyone. Perry would either be dead or there'd have been a previous Daily Planet boss before him.

This could have come up. But i recently heard about Superman 2000 in more detail. One of the ideas was that the JSA act as a sort of John the Baptist. They did their job. But their part was over. They helped groom Superman who was the real deal. Like Jesus. Parallels aside, the idea was that Superman is touched or inspired by the older generation of heroes in some way.

Not sure if that'll come up in this version of it even if the pieces are there, but yeah that was an idea in Superman 2000.

If you want some totally unfounded hope, Mark Waid has been recently showing up on DC interviews talking about his work, and he said that he's currently doing a big classic Superboy reread. If he were by some chance to come back to work at DC, he could be working on doing Clark Kents past a Superboy while Bendis does all the present day stuff with Jon (all assuming 5G of course).

That would probably be one of the bigger crowd pleasers and help 5G go down smooth. From there one would hope that he'd then stay on for Clark as Superman stories set in the past.

[Ascended]

You have to remember that more than a few perspective readers who grew up in the modern era might not really view these as "knocks". The hampering you have in mind might be largely if not exclusively felt by only the most deep-end Superman fans. Clark with the Legion isn't really the most prevailing take these days, and a good amount of people don't even regard Clark and Superboy as having been the same person.

All of which are, far as I'm concerned, mistakes that DC has perpetrated for far too long and are in need of course correction. You're right, people don't really see this as an issue, the Legion hasn't actually mattered in decades, and was only truly important to Clark as Superboy; otherwise it's just backstory. But just because people don't consider it a "knock" doesn't mean they're right.

Ultimately, it's background info. The Legion in Clark's origin is *not* a massive issue either way. But it *does* make a lot of things run smoother, it *does* benefit Clark's character, and there really isn't a valid reason to leave it out. Using the Legion to prop up Jon isn't a valid reason; the Legion isn't big enough to prop up anyone and Jon isn't big enough to prop up the Legion either. Beyond Bendis' idea of giving the future to the kids (and I do like the sentiment a lot), what's the gain, for anyone, by keeping the Legion removed from Clark?

Like I said, I'll take Clark dealing with the UP in my comics over having the Legion in his backstory, getting referenced on occasion and showing up even less often. That's a legit upgrade. But what benefit is there to keeping the Legion out of Clark's youth, other than to strip mine his mythos for the betterment of other characters who should be building their own legends anyway?

[Soubhagya]

If it is indeed the new timeline, then I imagine all you'll need to know is that the heroes have been around for a good long while.

I am still confused. If Batman is 70, why is he young now? I guessed what they were doing is keeping the world the same, some characters move across time. They move ahead in time, but have no recollection of their automatic time travel. Neither the world. Till they figure it out.

For everyone. Perry would either be dead or there'd have been a previous Daily Planet boss before him.

I think that would make it better. I wasn't a fan of the fact that Supreme's Lana Lang was in the 1930s, and in present day was old. Lois Lane was young. At least 40-50 years younger then Supreme.

Not sure if that'll come up in this version of it even if the pieces are there, but yeah that was an idea in Superman 2000.

If you want some totally unfounded hope, Mark Waid has been recently showing up on DC interviews talking about his work, and he said that he's currently doing a big classic Superboy reread. If he were by some chance to come back to work at DC, he could be working on doing Clark Kents past a Superboy while Bendis does all the present day stuff with Jon (all assuming 5G of course).

That would probably be one of the bigger crowd pleasers and help 5G go down smooth. From there one would hope that he'd then stay on for Clark as Superman stories set in the past.

That would be cool.

I fail to understand the logic. You have Clark Kent as Superboy. Many people find it silly. I thought that was why it was taken away. Apparently, the ones in control don't find it silly. So, you have Superboy. But he wasn't part of the Legion? It seems odd. I thought Superboy being part of Legion was highly regarded. I think maybe Bendis is strong on this idea.

[Soubhagya]

All of which are, far as I'm concerned, mistakes that DC has perpetrated for far too long and are in need of course correction. You're right, people don't really see this as an issue, the Legion hasn't actually mattered in decades, and was only truly important to Clark as Superboy; otherwise it's just backstory. But just because people don't consider it a "knock" doesn't mean they're right.

Ultimately, it's background info. The Legion in Clark's origin is *not* a massive issue either way. But it *does* make a lot of things run smoother, it *does* benefit Clark's character, and there really isn't a valid reason to leave it out. Using the Legion to prop up Jon isn't a valid reason; the Legion isn't big enough to prop up anyone and Jon isn't big enough to prop up the Legion either. Beyond Bendis' idea of giving the future to the kids (and I do like the sentiment a lot), what's the gain, for anyone, by keeping the Legion removed from Clark?

Like I said, I'll take Clark dealing with the UP in my comics over having the Legion in his backstory, getting referenced on occasion and showing up even less often. That's a legit upgrade. But what benefit is there to keeping the Legion out of Clark's youth, other than to strip mine his mythos for the betterment of other characters who should be building their own legends anyway?

Sweet! We are making the same point.

Now there's Superboy. Grant Morrison's origin is a footnote. If it comes to pass they better make Superboy really powerful. Sometime ago i was reading a Superboy issue. I don't remember the issue number. But it had something that caught my attention. So, Clark is sitting in class. He is reading history. I guess. Next he goes back in time and sees history for real. I liked that. I don't think i want to see him having adventures in Smallville.

[Superlad93]

But just because people don't consider it a "knock" doesn't mean they're right.

But if a enough people don't particularly care that it's not part of Clark's past then it gets kind of hard to argue its inclusion as something totally needed.

Ultimately, it's background info. The Legion in Clark's origin is *not* a massive issue either way. But it *does* make a lot of things run smoother, it *does* benefit Clark's character, and there really isn't a valid reason to leave it out.

But those supposed benefits are only ever a thing if the following stories play off them and continue to play off them on some level forever. Technically the Legion has been part of Clark's history since Johns brought them back pre-52, and while he and Morrison (during the New 52) made use of them for specific stories (and in Johns' case for nearly every super related thing he did), they have ultimately fallen away in relevance to the character since. My point is, as far as the character of Clark Kent goes, the inclusion of the Legion isn't intrinsic to his overall narrative. At best they are a reaffirmation for what he was already going to do anyway, so they come off as like a smaller third arm. Yeah, you can now grab one more thing and it's cool, but you'd have been able to grab that same thing with your two normal arms that everyone knows you to have.

Using the Legion to prop up Jon isn't a valid reason; the Legion isn't big enough to prop up anyone and Jon isn't big enough to prop up the Legion either. Beyond Bendis' idea of giving the future to the kids (and I do like the sentiment a lot), what's the gain, for anyone, by keeping the Legion removed from Clark?

I see it as a symbiotic relationship between Jon and the Legion. They create a greater whole by making their stories interconnected in a way that's just never been with Clark because, again for the most part, they're just not intrinsic to his story. In Jon's case he's flat out told that he needs to come to the future to live and grow into the man he needs to be so that he can take the ideals of the future with him back to the present and ensure the survival of their future. That's not subtext like it is with Clark. It's a mission Jon's being given, and it seems to inform his whole version of Superman going forward. For Jon it becomes as important as Clark leaning about Krypton's fate or Bruce traveling the world to train.

And to be frank, with something that intrinsic to who and what the character will become, you don't really share that if you can help it. Just basic writing sense says that you make that as focused and singular on the character (or characters) as possible, especially if part of the idea is the next generations learning from one another. Lets not forget, this is being framed both the Legion teaching Jon and Jon teaching the Legion. This is a singular moment for both, and them being able to take him from the time stream at all is being treated as a monumental moment just to put greater focus on the idea, as you should for something so important and intrinsic to both parties.

[Superlad93]

I am still confused. If Batman is 70, why is he young now? I guessed what they were doing is keeping the world the same, some characters move across time. They move ahead in time, but have no recollection of their automatic time travel. Neither the world. Till they figure it out.

The timeline hasn't set in yet because Metal hasn't happened. We're basically reading hypertime right now. Post Death Metal is likely what you're looking for.

[manwhohaseverything]

All of which are, far as I'm concerned, mistakes that DC has perpetrated for far too long and are in need of course correction. You're right, people don't really see this as an issue, the Legion hasn't actually mattered in decades, and was only truly important to Clark as Superboy; otherwise it's just backstory. But just because people don't consider it a "knock" doesn't mean they're right.

Ultimately, it's background info. The Legion in Clark's origin is *not* a massive issue either way. But it *does* make a lot of things run smoother, it *does* benefit Clark's character, and there really isn't a valid reason to leave it out. Using the Legion to prop up Jon isn't a valid reason; the Legion isn't big enough to prop up anyone and Jon isn't big enough to prop up the Legion either. Beyond Bendis' idea of giving the future to the kids (and I do like the sentiment a lot), what's the gain, for anyone, by keeping the Legion removed from Clark?

Like I said, I'll take Clark dealing with the UP in my comics over having the Legion in his backstory, getting referenced on occasion and showing up even less often. That's a legit upgrade. But what benefit is there to keeping the Legion out of Clark's youth, other than to strip mine his mythos for the betterment of other characters who should be building their own legends anyway?

I don't particularly care for superman at the moment. But, jon being friends with his dad's friends is bad in continuity.It would mean more melodrama with the kid.Jon and drama, not a great combo.Moreover, couple of them seems to really like jon more than a friend. It would be grosss.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

But if a enough people don't particularly care that it's not part of Clark's past then it gets kind of hard to argue its inclusion as something totally needed.



But those supposed benefits are only ever a thing if the following stories play off them and continue to play off them on some level forever. Technically the Legion has been part of Clark's history since Johns brought them back pre-52, and while he and Morrison (during the New 52) made use of them for specific stories (and in Johns' case for nearly every super related thing he did), they have ultimately fallen away in relevance to the character since. My point is, as far as the character of Clark Kent goes, the inclusion of the Legion isn't intrinsic to his overall narrative. At best they are a reaffirmation for what he was already going to do anyway, so they come off as like a smaller third arm. Yeah, you can now grab one more thing and it's cool, but you'd have been able to grab that same thing with your two normal arms that everyone knows you to have.



I see it as a symbiotic relationship between Jon and the Legion. They create a greater whole by making their stories interconnected in a way that's just never been with Clark because, again for the most part, they're just not intrinsic to his story. In Jon's case he's flat out told that he needs to come to the future to live and grow into the man he needs to be so that he can take the ideals of the future with him back to the present and ensure the survival of their future. That's not subtext like it is with Clark. It's a mission Jon's being given, and it seems to inform his whole version of Superman going forward. For Jon it becomes as important as Clark leaning about Krypton's fate or Bruce traveling the world to train.

And to be frank, with something that intrinsic to who and what the character will become, you don't really share that if you can help it. Just basic writing sense says that you make that as focused and singular on the character (or characters) as possible, especially if part of the idea is the next generations learning from one another. Lets not forget, this is being framed both the Legion teaching Jon and Jon teaching the Legion. This is a singular moment for both, and them being able to take him from the time stream at all is being treated as a monumental moment just to put greater focus on the idea, as you should for something so important and intrinsic to both parties.

Legion is only “intrinsic” Jon now, because Bendis ruined pretty much everything else the character had going for him to get here. And the legion had to lose its connection to Clark.

I really hope this is what we get. A book set in the past, with classic "triangle for two" Superman, maybe one with married Superdad, and one with Super-Jon would be my ideal. I'd read all of those.

That big 5G timeline truly could be exactly what we need.....if DC can do it right, and actually stick to a plan for more than five seconds, which they still seem unable to manage....but I'm trying to be hopeful that the kinks will be worked out before stuff hits the shelves.

Sounds like trying to please everybody, only to please nobody. 2/3 of those books would be stuck with the restrictions of being set in the past and unable to do anything important. It’d be like transforming the Batman line into a book where Dick is Robin, One where Jason is Robin, one with Tim, when he was alone, I don’t know starts to seem more like pandering than a real direction. Like just how prequel centric do you want to turn dc into?

[Superlad93]

Legion is only “intrinsic” Jon now

Okay, so long as it's understood that it is now indisputably intrinsic/vital to the character's story (in a way that Clark's versions were never to him), sure. That's the long and short of my point.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Okay, so long as it's understood that it is now indisputably intrinsic/vital to the character's story (in a way that Clark's versions were never to him), sure. That's the long and short of my point.

I used quotations because, no, it’s not. Take Dick Grayson, he got a bunch of growth as part of the Titans. More and better development than Jon will ever get in this legion reboot. Then the new 52 erased that team from his history. And yet he was basically the same, and for the most part it made sense why he’d be the same. Because there are always different journeys to lead to same destination.

[manwhohaseverything]

Okay, so long as it's understood that it is now indisputably intrinsic/vital to the character's story (in a way that Clark's versions were never to him), sure. That's the long and short of my point.

Do you mean the current story of jon or as whole? As a whole, i don't view legion as intrinsic to the character. I mean, legion has five issues or so. Anyways, i don't understand goldenage/silverage superboy books i have read had legion be very important to clark. Jon would work perfectly fine without legion. He has the entire titans team. Moreover, the character was never an outsider or an outcast. He was with people like him.Sure, he was treated like a walking bomb at first. But, the kid like naruto made friends with cooperation.

[Superlad93]

I used quotations because, no, it’s not.

But it is. Him being Superman is directly informed by them to the point where it is explicitly his mission to go back to the present day with the philosophical ideals of the future to directly inform the present. And that's not me being hyperbolic, that's just straight up the text of issue 5 of Legion.

I understand what you're trying to get at with your example of Dick Grayson, but that's a rabbit hole of what if. I'm speaking of right, in the history of this character, the Legion is intrinsic to his story, and that's indisputable. How that will be reinterpreted elsewhere is something that can't be predicted or planned for when just having a discussion.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

But it is. Him being Superman is directly informed by them to the point where it is explicitly his mission to go back to the present day with the philosophical ideals of the future to directly inform the present. And that's not me being hyperbolic, that's just straight up the text of issue 5 of Legion.

I understand what you're trying to get at with your example of Dick Grayson, but that's a rabbit hole of what if. I'm speaking of right, in the history of this character, the Legion is intrinsic to his story, and that's indisputable. How that will be reinterpreted elsewhere is something that can't be predicted or planned for when just having a discussion.

So your point that the story he is in right now is intrinisic to the story he is in right now? You can see how that’s not really a big deal right? Don’t see how that makes it more important than Clark’s past with them. Call back in 3-5 years and if they still inform what’s going on with him and whatever the legion looks like by then.

[Superlad93]

So your point that the story he is in right now intrinisic to the story he is in right now? You can see how that’s not really a big deal right?

Rome's not built in a day.

Don’t see how that makes it more important than Clark’s past with them.

The simple fact that the narrative never made it as important for Clark. It was a foot note for Clark, but for Jon it's the moment he gets his mission as Superman. That's inherently more important than it ever was for Clark in his stories.

Call back in 3-5 years and if they still inform what’s going on with him and whatever the legion looks like by then.

Well, yeah, that would be the plan if the take persists. Jon's a relatively new character, so we'll see.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Rome's not built in a day.



The simple fact that the narrative never made it as important for Clark. It was a foot note for Clark, but for Jon it's the moment he gets his mission as Superman. That's inherently more important than it ever was for Clark in his stories.



Well, yeah, that would be the plan if the take persists. Jon's a relatively new character, so we'll see.

Swapping Clark with Jon is about as unsustainable as it gets, so I’d take that wager. Anyway it’s not like there haven’t been reversions of the Legion where they were the ones who first told Clark that he was going to be a big important hero....