Why didn't Carol ever become as powerful as Mar-Vell??

[MadFacedKid]

I'm talking about Carol as Ms. Marvel not any Binary upgrade which didn't really involve Mar-Vell.

Supreme Intelligence speaking to Mar-Vell "The power I once sought from you... possessed by a single female"

Which is weird if she really was deemed a replacement for the combination Mar-Vell and Rik you'd think it would be shown. Yet she always seemed a tier or two off from Mar-Vell.

Which is pretty made evident with the fact she consistently has been able to not hang with the bigger characters Hulk and Thor, unlike Mar-Vell.

Personally bearing in mind her original origin. I think the idea of her being one of the most powerful characters in the MCU just seems logical, moreso logical than her comic counterpart.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Carol's power level was artificially increased to increase her "importance" and popularity. Her first power jump was to put her on Rogue's level since she was considered a nemesis. Then in modern era Marvel decided they needed a female powerhouse besides She-Hulk. Never realizing that power level doesn't go hand in hand with popularity it sometimes makes characters harder to relate to. Why Batman seems forever more popular than Superman in the modern era. Carol is being pushed by TPTB she is the smartest, best leader strongest fastest ect, ect in hopes of increasing her popularity, it is NOT working. DC tries the same thing with Kyle Rayner, increasing his power level to increase his popularity, yet he was never more popular than he was in his original incarnation. Besides there are tons of cool mid level villains in the Marvel universe, very few ultra powerful ones, leaving you fewer toys to play with. When Phoenix was on the team, taking on Arcade became silly. Or like Excalibur either Rachel had to be taken out quickly or there were only a few credible threats to the team.

[MadFacedKid]

Carol's power level was artificially increased to increase her "importance" and popularity. Her first power jump was to put her on Rogue's level since she was considered a nemesis. Then in modern era Marvel decided they needed a female powerhouse besides She-Hulk. Never realizing that power level doesn't go hand in hand with popularity it sometimes makes characters harder to relate to. Why Batman seems forever more popular than Superman in the modern era. Carol is being pushed by TPTB she is the smartest, best leader strongest fastest ect, ect in hopes of increasing her popularity, it is NOT working. DC tries the same thing with Kyle Rayner, increasing his power level to increase his popularity, yet he was never more popular than he was in his original incarnation. Besides there are tons of cool mid level villains in the Marvel universe, very few ultra powerful ones, leaving you fewer toys to play with. When Phoenix was on the team, taking on Arcade became silly. Or like Excalibur either Rachel had to be taken out quickly or there were only a few credible threats to the team.

Not really my question and I don't really agree either.

Batman is popular for several reasons alot of it has to do with the fact that he's a man capable of beating people like Superman. Most of it, probably is due to pop culture and growing up with the character.

Superman is still more popular than Captain America, Ironman is more popular than Captain America that's due to the push Ironman got with the MCU and he's more powerful then Cap.

Powerlevel has nothing to do with popularity. Alot of fans that grew up with Wally West who think of him as the Flash and by far he's the most powerful Flash. Same thing with Kyle as a GL, by feats he was the most powerful GL before becoming a White Lantern. If anything Kyle becoming a WL was to put focus back on Hal.

Thor is by far one the most powerful characters in comics same with Hulk, characters that consistently can carry a title.

My question btw isn't why Carol isn't made more powerful, my question is given the nature of Carol's origin why wasn't she ever as powerful as Mar-Vell.

[EmeraldGladiator]

ok forgive the snark, while less defined as back in the day, when Marvel put out limits on power ranges (Hulk can press 100+ tons when angry, Doc Samson can press 70). Mar-Vell was if I remember correctly around the 15 ton range, a little better than Spidey I think. Mar-Vell was never a Thor/Hulk/Silver Surfer level powerhouse. He went toe to toe with Thor once but he was super charged by the sun thanks to Thanos after the Marvel Two in One Annual events. However he as Protector of the Universe had the Omni level foes, he butted heads with Thanos, the biggest of the big bads more than most. Rogue was a 50 ton er and so Carol was too. Now while they don't limit (publish) characters limits that way anymore, the way Carol is written she is at the Thor, Silver Surfer level, probably not quite p.o'ed Hulk level but that tier right under it. I can't remember a time when other heroes where like Mar-vell is way stronger than me, it was more like, he beat Thanos he must be the stuff. I always assumed it was a combination of Cosmic Awareness and Kree battle skills that allowed Marvell to hang with characters way out of his league when taking on Namor, the Hulk or Thanos. Like Spidey with Firelord. Cosmic awareness making Mar-vell a cosmically aware Karnak, knowing weak points anticipating moves in a combat situation that along with being a highly trained Kree combat soldier make him hard to beat.

[MadFacedKid]

ok forgive the snark, while less defined as back in the day, when Marvel put out limits on power ranges (Hulk can press 100+ tons when angry, Doc Samson can press 70). Mar-Vell was if I remember correctly around the 15 ton range, a little better than Spidey I think. Mar-Vell was never a Thor/Hulk/Silver Surfer level powerhouse. He went toe to toe with Thor once but he was super charged by the sun thanks to Thanos after the Marvel Two in One Annual events. However he as Protector of the Universe had the Omni level foes, he butted heads with Thanos, the biggest of the big bads more than most. Rogue was a 50 ton er and so Carol was too. Now while they don't limit (publish) characters limits that way anymore, the way Carol is written she is at the Thor, Silver Surfer level, probably not quite p.o'ed Hulk level but that tier right under it. I can't remember a time when other heroes where like Mar-vell is way stronger than me, it was more like, he beat Thanos he must be the stuff. I always assumed it was a combination of Cosmic Awareness and Kree battle skills that allowed Marvell to hang with characters way out of his league when taking on Namor, the Hulk or Thanos. Like Spidey with Firelord. Cosmic awareness making Mar-vell a cosmically aware Karnak, knowing weak points anticipating moves in a combat situation that along with being a highly trained Kree combat soldier make him hard to beat.

http://m.imgur.com/a/49Lvm

http://m.imgur.com/a/t1n0Q

Never seeing Carol capable of doing anything like this.

[EmeraldGladiator]

plastic man can take down Superman in Plastic man's book. Hey as a kid in my mind Mar-Vell was the third strongest, right after Hulk and Thor, imagine my surprise when the Marvel who's who type book put him down at 15 tons. I figured he was at least in Namor's level (75 tons) but back then that was Marvel gospel. Must have been those Kree fighting skills because that is silver hared Mar-vell who isn't cosmically aware yet.

[Hulkout42]

Well i don't really understand the question here, if you refer to power wise she is more powerful than him but if you are referring to popularity i have to give it to Mar-Vell. Danvers just doesn't seem all that interesting to me as the good Captain was and that's after reading about him in the trades. I mean he was one of the best, he wasn't more powerful than her but i felt he was more noble and heroic and maybe Marvel is trying to recapture that with her or make her worthy of his title but honestly i don't she deserves it, especially with what has currently happened in CW2. Is she were to give up the name i would actually be happy with that decision as opposed to letting her keep it.

[Vic Vega]

Even Mar-Vell's power level fluctuated quite a bit.

Me and some other guys here were trying to figure out what exactly did the Nega Bands actually do for Mar-Vell as he
got several power ups after getting them.

So it's no surprise that Carol's power level have also been all over the place.

If Carol is waking around at half Binary's power level she's way stronger now than Mar-Vell ever was.

[ed2962]

I think it was just a possible plot element that was introduced then they probably just forgot about. Things were really loose editorially at Marvel back then but that probably also right when Jim Shooter was to tighten things up.

[Cykewasright]

Well i don't really understand the question here, if you refer to power wise she is more powerful than him but if you are referring to popularity i have to give it to Mar-Vell. Danvers just doesn't seem all that interesting to me as the good Captain was and that's after reading about him in the trades. I mean he was one of the best, he wasn't more powerful than her but i felt he was more noble and heroic and maybe Marvel is trying to recapture that with her or make her worthy of his title but honestly i don't she deserves it, especially with what has currently happened in CW2. Is she were to give up the name i would actually be happy with that decision as opposed to letting her keep it.

She never should have left the Starjammers, that was her best costume imo, and her best team, if she would have stayed with the Starjammers and became a X-Men regular instead of Avengers she probably would have been a way more popular character.

[MadFacedKid]

plastic man can take down Superman in Plastic man's book. Hey as a kid in my mind Mar-Vell was the third strongest, right after Hulk and Thor, imagine my surprise when the Marvel who's who type book put him down at 15 tons. I figured he was at least in Namor's level (75 tons) but back then that was Marvel gospel. Must have been those Kree fighting skills because that is silver hared Mar-vell who isn't cosmically aware yet.

That's honestly how I could bracket Mar-Vell when he's given page time with the other two.

Carol not so much, which is a bit strange given the origin of her power.

She can't phase a smart Hulk.


She's honestly never seem to be able to play at that tier without the Brood boost where she became Binary.

Even in Indestructible Hulk #15 I believe the power difference was pretty clear, where she was smacking around Grulk but the minute he becomes more Savage she gets tossed aside with a hit.

The scale between Mar-Vell and Hulk never seemed so far. My question for anyone wondering was why Carol was or is even so much more weaker than Mar-Vell given the origin of her abilities.

[JudicatorPrime]

Mar-Vell wasn't that powerful, to be honest. You have to remember that back in the 70s Marvel writers operated under an "any given Sunday" rule, whereby one character could defeat another irrespective of their power thresholds. Let's not forget that characters like Drax and Gamorra, who were both far less powerful than Thanos, were perceived to be legitimate threats to the Mad Titan. We weren't in an OHOTMU world then, but we are now.

In terms of strength and durability, Carol did better Mar-Vell. Take away the Cosmic Awareness, Nega Bands, fighting skill and experience and she was perceived to be "on par" with him. But she was never shown to have any of the "latent psionic talents common to all humans" outside of her sixth or seventh sense (I forget which magnitude she possessed). I suppose there was still time for her to manifest those powers, but after Claremont remade her as Binary I think everyone pretty much left it at that. Then and now, most writers do not like to work with OP characters outside of the occasional story arc.

Carol was very much a pro-feminist character in the early days, but never forget that most writers interpret equivalency as meaning "comparable", and not necessarily "superior to." We see that to this very day. She-Hulk is not superior to Hulk. War Machine was not superior to Iron Man. Nova (Frankie Raye) was not superior to Firelord. Bill Foster's Giant Man was not superior to Hank Pym's version, even though he supposedly improved the interaction of the particles. Dr. Voodoo is not superior to Dr. Strange. Blue Marvel is not superior to Sentry, even though both were written to adapt a version of Superman to the Marvel landscape. Even the female Thor has yet to show all of the same feats as the male version. To be sure, there have been exceptions to the rule. The Goddess was easily more powerful than the then existing version of Adam Warlock. (He's the Living Tribunal now, so obviously has changed.)

When it comes to Carol, we can only speculate why she didn't get a bigger power boost back when she was first introduced. But my hope is that they'll eventually stop creating derivative characters altogether. It was cute when it was just Carol, Jennifer (She Hulk), Jessica (Spider Woman), Janet and Jocasta. But now that we have Kismet, Spider-Gwen, the new Quasar, and the various progeny versions of legacy characters running around, I think maybe I'm hoping in vain.

[MadFacedKid]

Mar-Vell wasn't that powerful, to be honest. You have to remember that back in the 70s Marvel writers operated under an "any given Sunday" rule, whereby one character could defeat another irrespective of their power thresholds. Let's not forget that characters like Drax and Gamorra, who were both far less powerful than Thanos, were perceived to be legitimate threats to the Mad Titan. We weren't in an OHOTMU world then, but we are now.

In terms of strength and durability, Carol did better Mar-Vell. Take away the Cosmic Awareness, Nega Bands, fighting skill and experience and she was perceived to be "on par" with him. But she was never shown to have any of the "latent psionic talents common to all humans" outside of her sixth or seventh sense (I forget which magnitude she possessed). I suppose there was still time for her to manifest those powers, but after Claremont remade her as Binary I think everyone pretty much left it at that. Then and now, most writers do not like to work with OP characters outside of the occasional story arc.

Carol was very much a pro-feminist character in the early days, but never forget that most writers interpret equivalency as meaning "comparable", and not necessarily "superior to." We see that to this very day. She-Hulk is not superior to Hulk. War Machine was not superior to Iron Man. Nova (Frankie Raye) was not superior to Firelord. Bill Foster's Giant Man was not superior to Hank Pym's version, even though he supposedly improved the interaction of the particles. Dr. Voodoo is not superior to Dr. Strange. Blue Marvel is not superior to Sentry, even though both were written to adapt a version of Superman to the Marvel landscape. Even the female Thor has yet to show all of the same feats as the male version. To be sure, there have been exceptions to the rule. The Goddess was easily more powerful than the then existing version of Adam Warlock. (He's the Living Tribunal now, so obviously has changed.)

When it comes to Carol, we can only speculate why she didn't get a bigger power boost back when she was first introduced. But my hope is that they'll eventually stop creating derivative characters altogether. It was cute when it was just Carol, Jennifer (She Hulk), Jessica (Spider Woman), Janet and Jocasta. But now that we have Kismet, Spider-Gwen, the new Quasar, and the various progeny versions of legacy characters running around, I think maybe I'm hoping in vain.

Pretty much what I was looking for, appreciate this.

I don't think Voodoo and Strange are really far off to be honest might be the nature of their power being magic which can range.

I agree about your point on derivative characters, it was nice at one time now it's overused and unnecessary create new and unique characters. Honestly not big on sidekicks either anymore.

I guess the Nega Bands would be the answer to my post. Didn't Drax weaken Thanos by being near him? Also Classic Drax and Thanos be8ng powerfull enough to physically destroy planets.

[JudicatorPrime]

Pretty much what I was looking for, appreciate this.

I don't think Voodoo and Strange are really far off to be honest might be the nature of their power being magic which can range.

I agree about your point on derivative characters, it was nice at one time now it's overused and unnecessary create new and unique characters. Honestly not big on sidekicks either anymore.

I guess the Nega Bands would be the answer to my post. Didn't Drax weaken Thanos by being near him? Also Classic Drax and Thanos be8ng powerfull enough to physically destroy planets.

I agree that with human mages the difference is usually experience, knowledge-base and instrumentation. The problem that I had with Voodoo -- and quite frankly how I know that he's not on Stephen's level -- is that he inherited all of Strange's artifacts and paraphernalia. That made him worse than a derivative character. It made him a placeholder. I fear the same will happen to Sam Wilson eventually.

Yes, once Mar-Vell was augmented by Ego and given the cosmic energy channeling bracelets, the difference between his power levels and Carol's were quite stark. That said, he was still a relative lightweight compared to other cosmics. Classic Drax could easily wipe the floor with him in terms of sheer energy outlay, even though Drax wasn't necessarily in the same tier as a Soul Gem-less Adam Warlock, the Magus, the Silver Surfer, or Thanos. Having Cosmic Awareness kept Mar-Vell in just about every fight, though. He was dangerous for that reason alone. It's also worth noting that other recipients of the bracelets did develop to top tier cosmic power levels. It's likely that Mar-Vell simply didn't live long enough to attain the same levels of power.

I don't recall Drax having any proximity-damage powers against Thanos. He could certainly sense and track Thanos anywhere in the known and unknown universe. I do know that Thanos feared him and went out of his way to avoid Kronos' creation.

[JudicatorPrime]

This was a good thread. Now I'm wondering why along with the name Captain Marvel they didn't also bestow upon her the quantum/nega bands. The two should go hand in hand, so to speak.