Who has killed more innocents throughout the years: Namor or Batroc?

[Michael Watkins]

yes, it would have been better to let everyone in the universe die instead, as long as he got to keep his hands clean.

yes, glad that we agree.

And if Namor hadn't stopped the incursions then, Doom wouldn't have had enough time to find a way to save all the worlds. Everyone would have just died, and that would have been the end of it.

you have zero evidence of this.

[Michael Watkins]

The ratio is way off. What would Tiny(prisoner) have done if the Joker had put a nuke in Gotham set to detonate if neither side chooses?

if you saw it, you know that he would have prayed on it (as if he'd have an option in this ridiculous scenario); making the same choice. the point is that he had faith. given the importance of the 616, maybe some of the "heroes" should have had some faith. how often have these characters died; only to return, later?

[Abe]

you determine the relevancy of the question? good to know. Namor had a choice. organize a bunch of killers to take innocent lives; to temporarily stave off death. or let the incursion happen. you folks who support Namor's actions clearly don't see him as a noble individual. did you guys not see the end of the Dark Knight? that prisoner demonstrated more bravery than Namor.




^ahead of the curve

It is not the same moral dilemma at all. In the Dark Knight iirc if no one choose to blow the bombs no ferry would explode. It would have been the same situation if the result of not blowing the other ferry meant that both explode. And their respective universes (?!?) are annihilated too.

The choice made by Namor is closer than you think of the one made by the prisoner. Namor sacrifices his own morality to save much more lives than he took.Two entire universes vs one planet...

[Ravin' Ray]

Well, at least Steve Rogers and Sue Storm will support it no matter what.

This is presuming Steve and Sue's attitude towards Namor will absolutely never change, but Sue has come down on Namor recently during the confrontations with the Old Atlanteans in Hickman's Fantastic Four run.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

yes, glad that we agree.



you have zero evidence of this.

Doom was still working on a solution during Time Runs Out, so he most likely wasn't ready before.

[Michael Watkins]

It is not the same moral dilemma at all. In the Dark Knight iirc if no one choose to blow the bombs no ferry would explode. It would have been the same situation if the result of not blowing the other ferry meant that both explode. And their respective universes (?!?) are annihilated too...

the knowledge that they were working with is that they could be blown up if they didn't blow up the other ship. and Joker very much was going to detonate one of the ship; if neither side chose. the crux of the choices made is that they preferred the nobility of death to the murder of others. Namor was motivated by fear and desperation. Doom said as much. the Illuminati, Namor included, could have just made the other universes aware of the situation. instead, they took their insider knowledge and went about planning the murder of other worlds. and Namor went the furthest down that dark hole.

[Michael Watkins]

Doom was still working on a solution during Time Runs Out, so he most likely wasn't ready before.

time wasn't linear in that story. and, even if it were, Doom has a time machine.

[Abe]

monster

Iirc the dead Panthers kinda all agree with Namor : according to them T'challa should have blown the other Earth to save many more - including his own and Wakanda on it. So yes, Namor was merciful saving those who left.

Anyway if you want to blame some monsters you really have to add many more :

Inside the book :

- Dr Strange, who did as much as Namor as the leader of the Black Priests
- The members of the IN who voted to let the Cabal do the dirty job. (The Cabal is not yet involved in your scans btw)

Outside the book : the monster is Hickman who wrote such a story.

A really good story imo. A horror story yes. A story about politics too : Namor or T'challa here are written as King's and not as superheroes.

You wouldn't have to do a lot of search to find political leaders who assume death of innocent people in order to save many more - with or without the legal right to do so. Are they all monsters?

[Abe]

Context matters. Cap was also buddy buddy with a bunch of Allied generals in WWII, whose orders were probably responsible for many more civilian deaths than either. If they can get a pass on, say, Dresden and Tokyo and other such strategic bombing because it was a time of war, then Namor would presumably get the same benefit for actions taken as part of a war as monarch of Atlantis.

Exactly. And the chain of command doesn't stop at the generals.

[The Ray]

Iirc the dead Panthers kinda all agree with Namor : according to them T'challa should have blown the other Earth to save many more - including his own and Wakanda on it. So yes, Namor was merciful saving those who left.

Black Panthers aren't known for their merciful natures. In fact, the story they tell to justify the killing of the other Earths is a pretty cruel one. Basically "the world can burn as long as Wakanda stands".

Are they all monsters?

They aren't Avengers material, that's for sure.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

time wasn't linear in that story. and, even if it were, Doom has a time machine.

He wasn't next to one when the incursion was happening.

[Michael Watkins]

He wasn't next to one when the incursion was happening.

he's a master sorcerer, right? he'll think of something. he did think of something.

[Abe]

Black Panthers aren't known for their merciful natures. In fact, the story they tell to justify the killing of the other Earths is a pretty cruel one. Basically "the world can burn as long as Wakanda stands".



They aren't Avengers material, that's for sure.

Well, the story was interesting because it was about the limits of the superheroes morality. It was quite a depressive story, but maybe closer of the ethical issues of the real world politics than the classic Avengers tales.

Any thoughts btw about the others than Namor and the Panthers implied by my "they"? Stephen Strange? Cap working with SHIELD and thus the UN in TRO?

Also, the New Avengers book was about the Illuminati more than about what it means to be an Avenger. The Avengers book provides some good thing about that too - notably in the story arc where Cap goes into the future and kinda explore the limits of the Avengers Idea as it evolves in the future. Many interesting stuffs there.

Anyway it's really unfair to use just the Namor part of that story - and only a little part of what Hickman wrote about him - to support the idea of Namor as a bloodthirsty terrorist. About the other stories you're referring to in this thread others answered very well.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

he's a master sorcerer, right? he'll think of something. he did think of something.

Because Namor bought him time.

[Abe]

he's a master sorcerer, right? he'll think of something. he did think of something.

I'm sorry but the first post is not really more relevant to the discussion about Hickman's story than the second one.

Why not simply say that you didn't like that story?

And if you want to talk about it, why not adding at least a little sentence about Stephen Strange?