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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dum Dum Dugan View Post
    Because Namor bought him time.
    Yep.

    And the other Illuminati when they blew up the dead Earth during the incursion in Latveria. T'challa pulled the trigger iirc.

    It's not possible to take apart any piece of the story in that timeloop. From NA #1 to SW#9 everything is important. And if course the beyonders are the "real villains", and no one who helped defeat them is a pure hero.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    I'm sorry but the first post is not really more relevant to the discussion about Hickman's story than the second one.

    Why not simply say that you didn't like that story?

    And if you want to talk about it, why not adding at least a little sentence about Stephen Strange?
    because the thread is about Namor.

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dum Dum Dugan View Post
    Because Namor bought him time.
    what caused the incursions?

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    what caused the incursions?
    Hickman and the beyonders!
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  5. #155
    X Gon' Give It to Ya Dum Dum Dugan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    what caused the incursions?
    The Molecule Man and the Beyonders.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    because the thread is about Namor.
    Namor and Batroc!

    And as a French guy I have to say that Namor is a much more interesting character.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  7. #157
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    Namor and Batroc!

    And as a French guy I have to say that Namor is a much more interesting character.
    Where was Batroc during Secret Wars? Can we be sure he wasn't behind the whole thing? I think not!

  8. #158
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    You seem to refuse to acknowledge that Reed only "shot" Franklin because his powers were going haywire and therefore threatening reality as they knew it.
    I didn't refuse to acknowledge that there were mitigating circumstances for Reed's actions. In fact I specifically said that. Unlike THE RAY, and his likeminded friends, who refuse to acknowledge the mitigating circumstances of Namor's actions in Hickman's storyline -- or really any story for the last NINE PAGES.


    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    And then he worked far more diligently than anyone else to rectify the situation, while Sue, instead of standing by her husband and helping their child, ran off to Namor instead and served Reed divorce papers. She then stood by Namor as he led an attack on the surface world, and to this day IDK if she ever found out that it was a sham.
    Again, that is simply untrue. Sue left Reed and the FF and went to a FRIEND's house, for several issues. And, as far as I remember, she took Franklin and didn't leave him with Reed. And she certainly didn't run off with TO Namor. Namor, as according to Operation Rescue Reed and Sue's Marriage, went TO Sue and took her to Atlantis.

    Also, Namor led a FAKE attack on the FF, and at the very end of the issue, he revealed his actions were a sham and was very pleased to see the plan worked out and Sue went back to Reed. Sue definitely knows who her real friends are.

    And finally, no. The idea that Sue should blithely Stand By Her Man, after this traumatic event, is nonsense. She isn't a Stepford Wife. Leaving to sort out her feelings is entirely understandable.






    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    For someone who seems to forgive Namor for all the many people he's killed, whether on purpose or accident,
    Since THE RAY is incapable of actually answering a direct question, perhaps you can do better. Other than the AVX / Hickman mess, exactly who are these "many people" that Namor has killed?


    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    such severe condemnation of Reed's actions here just reeks of hypocrisy.
    As I didn't condemn Reed's actions severely, merely emphasized Sue's mitigating circumstances, your accusation of hypocrisy falls flat. Especially since you clearly have a double standard, as you haven't taken THE RAY or his friends, to task for posting nine pages of complete untruths, bizarre and unsubstantiated interpretations, and "severe condemnation" of Namor (and Sue) for things they did NOT do, or without any consideration to the mitigating circumstances of their actions.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 02-08-2018 at 09:57 PM.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  9. #159
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    One thing we can say, Sue's characterization has changed a lot over the decades, and that includes her relationship with Namor.





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  10. #160
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    The point of the incursions in the New Avengers run was to set up a situation in which, ultimately, heroic solutions were impossble. The only stances that could be taken were:

    1. Adamant determination not to employ any extreme measures which kill innocent people, on a "if you believe in fairies, clap your hands and something will turn up" approach (Steve Rogers).

    2. Desire to keep all options open, until finally deciding that you were morally incapable of mass extinction, even if it is to avert an inconceivably greater mass extinction (The Illuminati, sans Namor and, people often forget, Strange).

    3. Decision to embrace mass extinction as an attempt to avert greater death, despite the realisation that morally, it was impossible to come back from this (Namor and, people often forget, Strange).

    Behind it all, of course, is the realisation that actually they were all doomed anyway no matter what they did (spoilers:
    or not, as it transpired that the Incursions were merely a symptom of an attempt to avert total destruction
    end of spoilers)

    I don't think any of the approaches were right or wrong - it was supposed to be an impossible choice.

    I do think Steve was treated with a significant amount of mockery throughout, though. He's attacked for his sanctimony and self righteousness in behaving as this was not a difficult decision for the rest of them (with a large degree of truth) at the beginning of the story, and he's hilariously ridiculed by Beast and Hulk in Time Runs Out, not to mention he is treated as bitter and obsessive, pointless fighting a morally inverted Tony as destruction took place around them.

    If anyone's character suffered in New Avengers, IMO it's Captain America.

    Which is fine - his global "top superhero cop keeping the others inline" characterisation during and since AvX up until Secret Wars was a horrendously misjudged take on the character. Hell, Hydra Cap may have been more evil but he was a lot less irritating.

    But Namor? He gets a fantastic speech to the Cabal, and is superbly written throughout, so it's a good story for him.

    Thank you. A clear and informed analysis.

    Interesting thoughts about Cap. I do agree, he did come off badly in certain issues, especially in that fight with Tony. I wonder if part of his treatment in New Avengers wasn't due to the fact that Hickman had to clean up Bendis putting Cap on the Illuminati in the first place. Something that was simply ridiculous, IMO.

    Point 3, which I bolded, is my main objection to what Hickman did to Namor. Similar to what I said earlier, HOW do you 'fix' that? If you are going to trash a character like that, I think the writer should have to fix it.



    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    More or less. (I use slightly different phrasing, but have made the same case. But, some people really cannot wrap their minds around this.)

    Namor was drunk for the fight with the Great Society. And, as you point our, the Cabal made Namor seem better, if only by comparison.


    I think that Hickman's goal with Captain America was to demonstrate the failure of Bronze/Silver Age morality in that type of story.
    Wow. Excellent points. I didn't even think about that for Namor and the Great Society fight. Though ... I'm not entirely sure that is exactly the case. I guess I'll have to read it again.




    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    Namor's actions during the fight with the Great Society ("New Avengers" #18) are not wholly monstrous. He had to get good and drunk to do the necessary thing...that he knew none of the other Illuminati could do. (Blackbolt never had a chance to weigh in on the question of blowing up the other Earth.)

    And, his anger is perfectly justified. Aside from the Hulk, every other member of the Illuminati contributed to the destruction of the planet in some way. But, at the last minute, it fell to Namor to push the button (following through on what they agreed may have been necessary in the first issue). Namor was arguably saving his city, and his planet. (At the time, none of the team knew that the world was ending regardless.)
    Yes, Namor was saving his planet, but people forget, he was also saving the other universe as well.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  11. #161
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    That's a completely irrelevant question. If we know anything about Sue, it's that she always has been and always will be ready and willing to forgive Namor for absolutely anything he does, no matter how heinous, destructive, or apathetic the action is.
    Again, exactly what horrible actions are you talking about?
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  12. #162
    Mighty Member Johnny Peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I didn't refuse to acknowledge that there were mitigating circumstances for Reed's actions. In fact I specifically said that. Unlike THE RAY, and his likeminded friends, who refuse to acknowledge the mitigating circumstances of Namor's actions in Hickman's storyline -- or really any story for the last NINE PAGES.




    Again, that is simply untrue. Sue left Reed and the FF and went to a FRIEND's house, for several issues. And, as far as I remember, she took Franklin and didn't leave him with Reed. And she certainly didn't run off with TO Namor. Namor, as according to Operation Rescue Reed and Sue's Marriage, went TO Sue and took her to Atlantis.

    Also, Namor led a FAKE attack on the FF, and at the very end of the issue, he revealed his actions were a sham and was very pleased to see the plan worked out and Sue went back to Reed. Sue definitely knows who her real friends are.


    And finally, no. The idea that Sue should blithely Stand By Her Man, after this traumatic event, is nonsense. She isn't a Stepford Wife. Leaving to sort out her feelings is entirely understandable.








    Since THE RAY is incapable of actually answering a direct question, perhaps you can do better. Other than the AVX / Hickman mess, exactly who are these "many people" that Namor has killed?




    As I didn't condemn Reed's actions severely, merely emphasized Sue's mitigating circumstances, your accusation of hypocrisy falls flat. Especially since you clearly have a double standard, as you haven't taken THE RAY or his friends, to task for posting nine pages of complete untruths, bizarre and unsubstantiated interpretations, and "severe condemnation" of Namor (and Sue) for things they did NOT do, or without any consideration to the mitigating circumstances of their actions.
    I'd like to add that Reed received the divorce papers before Sue left with Namor and the "attack" on the surface world never reached dry land.
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  13. #163
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    This.

    I find odd that Sue is willing to do things for Namor than she isn't willing to do for her family.


    Maybe she should leave her family for him, after all.
    Again, completely untrue.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Peril View Post
    I'd like to add that Reed received the divorce papers before Sue left with Namor and the "attack" on the surface world never reached dry land.
    Thank you. I was digging for my copy of those issues for more facts, but hadn't gotten to them yet.

    Arguably, the divorce papers might have been what prompted the Namor / Inhuman plan being implemented.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    How many of thoses generals were invited to be part of the Avengers?
    How many of those generals were superheroes? The Avengers is a superhero team.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

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