Who has killed more innocents throughout the years: Namor or Batroc?

[Jabare]

probably the guy that causes tsunamis and drowns cities and their inhabitants

[The Ray]

So, Namor being that much worse than actual villains casts an ugly light over two characters considered heroes that have been, let's say, overly friendly with Namor: Steve Rogers and Sue Storm.

Steve Rogers is Captain America, the sentinel of liberty, the guy that is loyal to nothing but the dream. Yet he is apparently willing to turn a blind eye if the criminal is one of his friends. Doesn't that make the other heroes uncomfortable? And the civilians? Doesn't bother them that an specific criminal has carte blanche to attack them because Captain America allows him to do it, and even invites him to join the Avengers afterwards?

And how about Susan Storm? During Civil War, her relationship with Reed suffered greatly because of his willingness to imprison those that decided to defy the law. Understandable, but it's strange when apparently Namor murdering innocents has never got in the way of her infatuation. She has even considered leaving Reed for him in the past. Does she loves Namor more than she loves Reed, seeing how she is prepared to ignore Namor's worst characteristics, but won't do the same for her husband? Does she lacks simpathy for those that lost their lives because of Namor?

That's a good debate.

[DragonsChi]

People forget or ignore that when Namor first return to the Marvel Universe he came home to this:


They also tend to ignore that by opting out of joining Iron Man in the first Civil War this happened:


Or while almost every other super hero gets a pass when their possessed by a Giant Cosmic Chicken that the end results for him was this:


I'm not a hardcore Namor fan and I will be the first to admit that Namor comes off as an Ass in most cases. However, the bias he gets as a character is not warranted. Almost, all of Namor transgression have been in retaliation. You can't have a fair discussion without addressing that piece.

[CaptCleghorn]

And how about Susan Storm? During Civil War, her relationship with Reed suffered greatly because of his willingness to imprison those that decided to defy the law. Understandable, but it's strange when apparently Namor murdering innocents has never got in the way of her infatuation. She has even considered leaving Reed for him in the past. Does she loves Namor more than she loves Reed, seeing how she is prepared to ignore Namor's worst characteristics, but won't do the same for her husband? Does she lacks simpathy for those that lost their lives because of Namor?

I suggest you actually read some issues of Fantastic Four before you post about this again.

That's a good debate.

No, it really isn't.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

So, Namor being that much worse than actual villains casts an ugly light over two characters considered heroes that have been, let's say, overly friendly with Namor: Steve Rogers and Sue Storm.

Steve Rogers is Captain America, the sentinel of liberty, the guy that is loyal to nothing but the dream. Yet he is apparently willing to turn a blind eye if the criminal is one of his friends. Doesn't that make the other heroes uncomfortable? And the civilians? Doesn't bother them that an specific criminal has carte blanche to attack them because Captain America allows him to do it, and even invites him to join the Avengers afterwards?

When has Cap turned a blind eye towards Namor? When he made Namor a fugitive after AVX, or when he was hunting him during Time Runs Out?

[The Ray]

I suggest you actually read some issues of Fantastic Four before you post about this again.

I finished DeFalco's run two weeks ago. Sue and Namor were pretty lovey-dovey there, Sue was even considering the possibility of a relationship with him before they discovered that Reed was alive.

Namor trigger-happy past against civilians didn't seem to bother her much.

[CaptCleghorn]

I finished DeFalco's run two weeks ago. Sue and Namor were pretty lovey-dovey there, Sue was even considering the possibility of a relationship with him before they discovered that Reed was alive.

Namor trigger-happy past against civilians didn't seem to bother her much.

But it bothers you a whole lot. Here's a thought. You don't sleep with Namor.

[The Ray]

But it bothers you a whole lot. Here's a thought. You don't sleep with Namor.

Of course I don't. He is fictional, I'm hetero, and I don't have a fetish for mass-murderers.

Fortunately, we are talking about Steve Rogers and Sue Storm, not about me.

[CaptCleghorn]

Of course I don't. He is fictional, I'm hetero, and I don't have a fetish for mass-murderers.

Fortunately, we are talking about Steve Rogers and Sue Storm, not about me.

You really need to read some comic books and get a better idea about the mostly naked character you're fixated on.

[The Ray]

You really need to read some comic books and get a better idea about the mostly naked character you're fixated on.

I don't get what you are trying to do.

You didn't like the questions I made about Sue, right? Why don't you prove me wrong, then? It would be much better than all this passive aggressivity.

[CaptCleghorn]

I don't get what you are trying to do.

There's a lot you don't get.

You didn't like the questions I made about Sue, right? Why don't you prove me wrong, then? It would be much better than all this passive aggressivity.

Let's cover your points. If you're actually asking a question, then you don't have a notion to be proven wrong on. If you're asking a question expecting to get support for your belief, then you're the one being passive aggressive.

The Sue/Namor relationship has gone through over fifty years of stories by dozens of writers. If you expect any kind of inner consistency, you're an idiot.

Namor's historic misdeeds have been the subject of many stories. You really need to read some of these. I don't expect them to have an effect on you because your mind is pretty well made up.

As for Namor and Cap, you're obviously ignorant on this whole WWII thing. It was a big thing back in the 40s and people bonded with those they couldn't stand to fight those they hated even more. This was real life, by the way.

Also big in real life, love and forgiveness rarely follow set guidelines. Girls love bad boys. Shared struggles create alliances that last a lifetime. After a fight we sometimes ally ourselves with former enemies.

You think Namor's a big doodyhead. Cool. You also want to smear his name by bringing everyone who's ever been close to him down into your denigration. Awesome. You probably want to bring Dr Strange, Betty Dean Prentiss, Namor's whole family, Marrina, the Goddess Venus, the city of Atlantis and many others.

Also, I don't do passive aggressive.

[The Ray]

The Sue/Namor relationship has gone through over fifty years of stories by dozens of writers. If you expect any kind of inner consistency, you're an idiot.

And in fifty years of stories, no good explanation was given for that?

She once tried to leave her family for a man that kills civilians when he throws tantrums. This is the kind of thing that begs for an explanation.

As for Namor and Cap, you're obviously ignorant on this whole WWII thing. It was a big thing back in the 40s and people bonded with those they couldn't stand to fight those they hated even more. This was real life, by the way.

In real life, how many WWII soldiers became mass-murderes in America? How many of those mass-murderers were allowed to keep doing their villainous acts because they were friends with someone in power?

Also big in real life, love and forgiveness rarely follow set guidelines. Girls love bad boys.

There's a clear difference between "Marlon Brando" bad boy and "Charles Manson" bad boy. If any idiot can see that, why can't Sue?

Namor has killed more innocents than Charles Manson, by the way.

Also, I don't do passive aggressive.

There's a lot you don't get.

Hum...

[CaptCleghorn]

Never mind.

[The Ray]

I doubt you'd be happy with anything, but an explanation has been given.

Try me, then. What was the explanation? Something very well-written, I suppose.

Once? Seriously, read some damn comic books.

More than once. Satisfied now? How does that help your argument? If anything, it makes Sue look worse.

Now who did Namor mass murder after WWII? I'm going by his flooding of Manhattan pre-WWII, but only God knows what you think you're talking about.

Wakandians, billions of humans in thousands of alternative Earths, and then there's this...



I doubt that "a few years back" was pre WWII.

Manson attracted many women before and after his arrest and inceration.

And those women have always been mocked for that.

Is this what Sue Storm is? A Charles Manson fangirl? Poor Reed, then.

[Habis]

Realistically speaking, it should be Namor. Bartroc is a thief, not an assassin, he doesn't kill people for money, and he doesn't even use firearms to fight, he just kicks his foes into unconsciousness, and he is a just a non-enhanced baseline human...

Namor, on the other hand, has flooded New York and other cities a few times. He should have drowned at least a few innocents each time... Plus he tends to go into a frenzy now and then, and being thrown a car by Namor should be WAY more lethal that getting a kick in the gut from Bartroc...

But in the MU crimes are easily forgiven. General Ross is back to business after trying to make a coup against the US government, superheroes don't try to pull Tony Stark's head off despite all the crap he did, the X-Men allowed Emma Frost around their kids despite what she did to Storm and Jean Grey, Magneto and Dr. Nemesis tolerate each other despite Dr. Nemesis siding with the Nazis during WWII, nobody cares all he innocent Native Americans and Japanese woman and children that Wolverine killed, nobody cares that Beast blew a whole planet...etc.