Who has killed more innocents throughout the years: Namor or Batroc?

[CaptCleghorn]

Try me, then. What was the explanation? Something very well-written, I suppose.

John Byrne's run. As suitable of an explantion as anything regarding half human/half atlantean lives can be.

More than once. Satisfied now? How does that help your argument? If anything, it makes Sue look worse.

You mistake a pointing out of your lack of knowledge for a defense of Sue.

Wakandians, billions of humans in thousands of alternative Earths, and then there's this...



I doubt that "a few years back" was pre WWII.

Wakanda has that whole Phoenix thing going on. Any post 1960 works started with the destruction of and moving of the Atlantean people as explained in FF Annual 1. Reading the actual comics helps out a lot with any discussion of Namor.

And those women have always been mocked for that.

Is this what Sue Storm is? A Charles Manson fangirl? Poor Reed, then.

You really need to google Clor.

[The Ray]

John Byrne's run. As suitable of an explantion as anything regarding half human/half atlantean lives can be.

Byrne's run on what? On Fantastic Four? On Sub-Mariner? And what is the explanation?

Let me remind you: this is a heroine wanting to leave her family behind for a villain that kills civilians and has harmed her family and kidnapped her in the past. If the explanation exists, it must be truly well-written. What is the explanation?

Wakanda has that whole Phoenix thing going on. Any post 1960 works started with the destruction of and moving of the Atlantean people as explained in FF Annual 1. Reading the actual comics helps out a lot with any discussion of Namor.

Then it starts with Namor killing civilians after WWII, right?

You really need to google Clor.

If you add up all the bad things Reed has ever done, he is still a much better man than Namor can hope to be.

Susan simply can't have a problem with Clor while she ignores Namor killing people en masse. It makes her not-so-bright.

[Wiccan]

This thread reminded me of a sassy Wiccan moment that would probably have the X-Fans forever hating him if they remembered lol.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

[The Ray]

Yet Namorita doesn't feel the need to murder civilians.

And how does that explain Sue's attraction anyway? Is she attracted to insane killers? Is Sue Marvel's Harley Quinn on top of being Marvel's Charles Manson fangirl?

[4sake Baned]

So, Namor being that much worse than actual villains casts an ugly light over two characters considered heroes that have been, let's say, overly friendly with Namor: Steve Rogers and Sue Storm.

Steve Rogers is Captain America, the sentinel of liberty, the guy that is loyal to nothing but the dream. Yet he is apparently willing to turn a blind eye if the criminal is one of his friends. Doesn't that make the other heroes uncomfortable? And the civilians? Doesn't bother them that an specific criminal has carte blanche to attack them because Captain America allows him to do it, and even invites him to join the Avengers afterwards?

And how about Susan Storm? During Civil War, her relationship with Reed suffered greatly because of his willingness to imprison those that decided to defy the law. Understandable, but it's strange when apparently Namor murdering innocents has never got in the way of her infatuation. She has even considered leaving Reed for him in the past. Does she loves Namor more than she loves Reed, seeing how she is prepared to ignore Namor's worst characteristics, but won't do the same for her husband? Does she lacks simpathy for those that lost their lives because of Namor?

That's a good debate.

Great points & an even better thread..

[CaptCleghorn]

Byrne's run on what? On Fantastic Four? On Sub-Mariner? And what is the explanation?

Let me remind you: this is a heroine wanting to leave her family behind for a villain that kills civilians and has harmed her family and kidnapped her in the past. If the explanation exists, it must be truly well-written. What is the explanation?

If we're going to accept a giant tidal wave hitting Manhattan in 1940, we're unable to force any sense of 'well-written" for any thing regarding Namor. It's a superhero comic book. Get with the program. It was Byrne's Namor run. You don't get to pick and choose which "well-written" aspects of superhero stories you want to keep or discount.

Then it starts with Namor killing civilians after WWII, right?

You keep on going on about this, but outside of one panel which has been explained, you've provided nothing.

If you add up all the bad things Reed has ever done, he is still a much better man than Namor can hope to be.

Susan simply can't have a problem with Clor while she ignores Namor killing people en masse. It makes her not-so-bright.

Who has Namor killed en masse? Has this really happened? Seriously, come up with something. People have listed explanations for stuff after 1960. And if you believe Reed's a better man than Namor, then Sue picking Reed should be to your liking.

[DragonsChi]

Great points & an even better thread..

LOL He is talking completely from head cannon.

[CaptCleghorn]

I just figured it out.

[The Ray]

If we're going to accept a giant tidal wave hitting Manhattan in 1940, we're unable to force any sense of 'well-written" for any thing regarding Namor. It's a superhero comic book. Get with the program.

Terrible explanation and terrible excuse.

This is a comic books forum. Comic book creators visit this site daily. You come here to discuss comic books frequently. "Comic books are inherently badly written" won't work, my friend.

You, as a Fantastic Four fan, believes that the group and Sue Richards was never well-written? That's a little harsh.

You keep on going on about this, but outside of one panel which has been explained, you've provided nothing.

What has been explained? The panel makes clear that, when Namor attacks, people die (which should be common sense). What must I provide? The bodies?

Who has Namor killed en masse?

Wakandias, billions of humans in thousands of Earths, NY citizens...

I wonder why the villains don't call the heroes out on that. If I was Batroc, I would throw that in Steve's face every opportunity I got.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

If he didn't destroy those earths, the entire universe would have been destroyed. He was the only one willing to get his hands dirty, since the other members of the Illuminati were just willing to let everybody die.

And he was possessed by the Phoenix when he attacked Wakanda, who had just abducted Transonic.

So all we have left is something from the 1940s when he was acting erratically because of a chemical imbalance in his brain.

Not to mention their have been numerous retcons about his initial attacks on the humans, how many actually died, etc.

https://uncannyxmen.net/characters/s...raphy/page/0/1

[The Cool Thatguy]

People forget or ignore that when Namor first return to the Marvel Universe he came home to this:


They also tend to ignore that by opting out of joining Iron Man in the first Civil War this happened:


Or while almost every other super hero gets a pass when their possessed by a Giant Cosmic Chicken that the end results for him was this:


I'm not a hardcore Namor fan and I will be the first to admit that Namor comes off as an Ass in most cases. However, the bias he gets as a character is not warranted. Almost, all of Namor transgression have been in retaliation. You can't have a fair discussion without addressing that piece.

In fairness...none of those are the fault of the United States.

The first time Atlantis was destroyed, it was by a guy using the serpent crown called Destiny.

The second pic, Namor destroyed Atlantis, rather than allow Tin Pit Stark to be able to reach his country, and the last destruction was because of Thanos, that Namor then aimed at Wakanda like a douche.

[DragonsChi]

To add that during the Avengers vs the X-Men large chunks of Utopia fell on the Atlantean people living under it.

In fairness...none of those are the fault of the United States.

The first time Atlantis was destroyed, it was by a guy using the serpent crown called Destiny.

The second pic, Namor destroyed Atlantis, rather than allow Tin Pit Stark to be able to reach his country, and the last destruction was because of Thanos, that Namor then aimed at Wakanda like a douche.

Nah the first time was due to Atomic/Nuclear test. That took place right after Johnny help restore Namor's memory. It was Namor's first appearance in the MU.

Iron Man was actually going to take Namor and the Atlantean's in tow with U.S. Soldiers because he and his people would not register. The city would have been destroyed in the conflict so Namor did it himself to avoid his people being imprisoned for laws they where not subject too.

The last was after Wakanda surprised invaded Atlantis due to the possession that happen in AvX. Thanos team did show up there after.

So two out of the three. But in all three cases the surface world had a part in the destruction of Atlantis.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

In fairness...none of those are the fault of the United States.

The first time Atlantis was destroyed, it was by a guy using the serpent crown called Destiny.

The second pic, Namor destroyed Atlantis, rather than allow Tin Pit Stark to be able to reach his country, and the last destruction was because of Thanos, that Namor then aimed at Wakanda like a douche.

The last one was after Wakanda attacked them, after pretending to accept Namor's offer for peace.

[CaptCleghorn]

Terrible explanation and terrible excuse.

This is a comic books forum. Comic book creators visit this site daily. You come here to discuss comic books frequently. "Comic books are inherently badly written" won't work, my friend.

You, as a Fantastic Four fan, believes that the group and Sue Richards was never well-written? That's a little harsh.

No, I'm pointing out that you don't get to cherry pick what to accept as 'well written". If you accept a half Atlantean prince possessed by an extraterrestrial power being at fault for destruction of lives, you accept that on other occasions his brain chemistry was off. You also accept that his planet was at stake and he was defending it. You accept that his city was demolished by surface dwellers and the prince of that city retaliated.

The Fantastic Four was a groundbreaking book. The Namor/Sue angle is not one of its better moments. However, if you've actually read FF, you'd see numerous occasions where Namor may be a dog, but he's also often a loyal friend. That's where that reading the book helps.

The reasons are there, but the foundation they're built on is from comic books over 70 years old. Yeah, I think "not well written" applies in general to Atlantis.

What has been explained? The panel makes clear that, when Namor attacks, people die (which should be common sense). What must I provide? The bodies?

Wakandias, billions of humans in thousands of Earths, NY citizens...

I wonder why the villains don't call the heroes out on that. If I was Batroc, I would throw that in Steve's face every opportunity I got.

All three of your examples have reasons. Avengers vs X-Men, Hickman's New Avengers, and FF Annual 1 all give Namor's "justification". It's clear Namor's far from squeaky clean here, but he's not in the class of Mass Murderer. The Byrne explanation serves to cover everything else. You choose not to accept these explanations or demand they be "well written".