Android 17 vs. Golden Freeza vs. Ultimate Gohan

[greatmetropolitan]

Gohan is a non Factor because he isn't on serious.Blue level. Gohan is SSJ2 Goku level at absolute best, and I even doubt that give Goku'stro get than when he spared Gohan.

I don't think this is accurate . Gohan even said to SSJ2 Goku in their match "you won't beat me like this!" Or words to that effect before hitting him hard. Goku then went blue and Gohan was still landing blows. It wasn't till goku used kiao ken - at least doubling his power as blue - that he was considerably out of Gohan's league. And given they were training to see how far gohan could go and to protect their whole universe, I don't think goku was massaging his ego or anything by going blue.

I think gohan is probably around ssj blue level as it was seen in Ressurection F. However, both Goku and Vegeta have improved since then, as has Frieza.

Give gohan 6 months of proper training time and he'd be up there with goku and vegeta imho.

[Cyke]

I don't think this is accurate . Gohan even said to SSJ2 Goku in their match "you won't beat me like this!" Or words to that effect before hitting him hard. Goku then went blue and Gohan was still landing blows. It wasn't till goku used kiao ken - at least doubling his power as blue - that he was considerably out of Gohan's league. And given they were training to see how far gohan could go and to protect their whole universe, I don't think goku was massaging his ego or anything by going blue.

I think gohan is probably around ssj blue level as it was seen in Ressurection F. However, both Goku and Vegeta have improved since then, as has Frieza.

Give gohan 6 months of proper training time and he'd be up there with goku and vegeta imho.

Agreed. It kinda says something when Goku has to access SSB + Kaioken during a sparring match. Plus, back in the Buu Saga, Mystic Gohan was one of their best weapons against Super Buu, who had already absorbed Gotenks.

This isn't just Gohan we're talking about here, but Mystic Gohan who had to relearn how to surpass and incorporate Super Saiyan 2 to get back to his top form. It's just that his hair isn't a different color to denote that change more easily.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Correct. I honestly believe Gohan is more powerful than 17, and maybe even with Golden Freiza’s or only a bit below by the Tournament. But he seriously lacks diversity and that will net him a loss here.

[Hiromi]

Agreed. It kinda says something when Goku has to access SSB + Kaioken during a sparring match.

not when they'd already cheapened it by having him do the same thing against Roshi, Krillin, Android 17, and Buu, those sparring matches were classic Toei filler nonsense, Goku at SSJ blue Kaio Ken was going toe to toe with Toppo and at least making Jiren fight back, none of those characters he sparred with could do that

Plus, back in the Buu Saga, Mystic Gohan was one of their best weapons against Super Buu, who had already absorbed Gotenks.

That's an interesting take given Gohan never landed a single attack on Buutenks(oops there's one, so amend that to Buutenks while he wasn't being distracted by Mr. Satan emotions) while getting the snot beat out of him all while Buu was basically toying with him(seriously, he didn't even bother blocking, he just face dodged everything), they didn't have a weapon against that version of Buu, period, it's why they were desperate enough to use the Potara fusion

Correct. I honestly believe Gohan is more powerful than 17, and maybe even with Golden Freiza’s or only a bit below by the Tournament. But he seriously lacks diversity and that will net him a loss here.

We haven't seen anything whatsoever to suggest that he's on terms with Freeza, Freeza was actually hurting Toppo with his base ki attacks, which Gohan clearly couldn't do. At best he might be somewhere around 17, but 17 has gimmicks that screw with power scaling such as his barrier and infinite stamina/energy reserves

Edit: Basically this, Freeza had to HOLD BACK because he was worried he might kill Toppo with a serious energy blast, really think Gohan was capable of that?

[Hazard]

Regarding Gohan, one charged Kamehameha from him overpowered a beam attack from the robot fusion that had proven itself capable of canceling out a big blast from Vegeta and a Kamehameha from Goku at the same time. Both were in Blue. And this is after Goku has gone through a substantial power-up.

17 couldn't really beat Toppo before his transformation. He couldn't really even hurt him much by himself. He could just stall, whereas Golden Frieza could kill him.

If by that you mean Frieza hit Toppo from behind multiple times while he was in the middle of an intense beam struggle with 17 so 17 could win said beam struggle and seriously hurt Toppo, then sure, Frieza could totally kill Toppo.

[Hiromi]

Regarding Gohan, one charged Kamehameha from him overpowered a beam attack from the robot fusion that had proven itself capable of canceling out a big blast from Vegeta and a Kamehameha from Goku at the same time. Both were in Blue.



If by that you mean, Frieza hit Toppo from behind multiple times while he was in the middle of an intense beam struggle with 17 so 17 could win said beam struggle and seriously hurt Toppo, then sure, Frieza could totally kill Toppo.

Freeza flat out said he was holding back so he wouldn't accidentally kill him with his actual serious energy blast, meanwhile while Toppo was fighting 17 and Gohan he took a blind side blast from 17 followed by a full on Kamehameha from Gohan and his response was to tisk and ask is that it?

[Hazard]

Freeza flat out said he was holding back so he wouldn't accidentally kill him with his actual serious energy blast, meanwhile while fighting 17 and Gohan he took a blind side blast from 17 followed by a full on Kamehameha from Gohan and his response was to tisk and ask is that it?

And in the same episode Frieza also said 'Beware the power to blow up a planet!' Like, this is the same episode where he thought he could handle Destruction Energy from someone actually trying.

Frieza talks ****. It's his thing, and he doesn't even get the benefit of the doubt from being able to sense energy. When Frieza attacked Toppo, Toppo was trying to use most of his power to kill 17 in one shot. It's not even remotely a reliable way to judge how things would go against a Toppo that isn't using most of his power elsewhere else.

[Darth Drizzle]

Gonna have to go with Freeza on this one.

His energy attacks actually hurt Toppo, where as a energy attack from 17 and Gohan both were tanked easily by Toopo.

Also Freeza is much tougher/durable than 17(plus his barriers can be broken by normal energy spam attacks) and has resisted Destruction energy twice.

And the last advantage is his TK, Paralysis, and other exotic powers which taken by themselves are not better than Infinite Stamina, but toghether can be used more effectively.

[Hiromi]

What? It was his Deathball, it's not like he was lying about it being a planet asploder given that he's done exactly that all the way back in his first form. Even if Toppo was focused on the beam, struggle he'd taken blind side attacks he wasn't expecting during his fight with 17 and Gohan, and they did nothing to him. Freeza was the first one outside Vegeta and Goku to make him actually notice an attack much less visibly feel pain from it, and he did it with his most basic attack, it's not a leap to take him at his word that he could actually kill him if went all out. Need to keep in mind that Freeza was actually stronger than SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta during Resurrection F and just drained stamina faster, according to him he got even stronger while in Hell in addition to fixing the stamina leaking.

[Hazard]

What? It was his Deathball, it's not like he was lying. Even if Toppo was focused on the beam, struggle he'd taken blind side attacks he wasn't expecting during his fight with 17 and Gohan, and they did nothing to him. Freeza was the first one outside Vegeta and Goku to make him actually notice an attack much less visibly feel pain from it, and he did it with his most basic attack, it's not a leap to take him at his word that he could actually kill him if went all out.

Was he using most of his power for something else when Gohan and 17 attacked him? No, he wasn't. Hell, the fact that at the end of it all, Toppo was still standing is a big knock against Frieza's supposed ability to defeat him.

Also, Frieza's finger beams are not basic attacks. They are deadly precise focused power.

(plus his barriers can be broken by normal energy spam attacks)

With his barrier up, 17 literally shoved his way through an attack that was matching the combined output of SSJB Goku, Gohan, SSJB Vegeta, Golden Frieza, and 17.

Sure, you can overpower his barrier with normal energy attacks, but it takes a lot more than what anyone here has.

[Hiromi]

He stood long enough to gasp curse...you before falling to the ground and being visibly done, if you want to call that still standing

[Cyke]

not when they'd already cheapened it by having him do the same thing against Roshi, Krillin, Android 17, and Buu, those sparring matches were classic Toei filler nonsense, Goku at SSJ blue Kaio Ken was going toe to toe with Toppo and at least making Jiren fight back, none of those characters he sparred with could do that

I wouldn't say cheapened. Remember that SSB grants damn near perfect control over ki regardless of powerlevel. That beam war with Krillin would have turned out differently, with Krillin probably vaporized, if Goku went SSJ instead of SSB -- even if SSJ1 is considerably weaker, it doesn't have the fine control of SSB.

Think of it this way: a parent and a toddler wrestling for fun. The parent is by far the stronger of the two and, if it were a real fight, would need just a split second to kill the toddler. That's SSJ. The parent who works out (thus the strength boost) but also has the self-control, restraint, and observation to keep that wrestling match going on and on, that's SSB. But restraining oneself also takes stamina (ask any parent).

Essentially, if SSJ Goku engaged that beam war with Krillin, there'd be a much better chance of Goku accidentally killing Krillin despite SSJ being only a fraction of the power. SSB was the way to go if he wanted to test out Krillin, no matter how weak or strong Krillin was (also recall that in base form, a simple punch from Goku sent Krillin flying quite some distance, and nearly killed him in early Super. If you're testing his power and want him for your universe-saving team, you're not going to risk that again).

That's an interesting take given Gohan never landed a single attack on Buutenks(oops there's one, so amend that to Buutenks while he wasn't being distracted by Mr. Satan emotions) while getting the snot beat out of him all while Buu was basically toying with him(seriously, he didn't even bother blocking, he just face dodged everything), they didn't have a weapon against that version of Buu, period, it's why they were desperate enough to use the Potara fusion

He was still able to keep up with him powerwise (their own beam struggle), still landed several solid blows, and was able to go toe-to-toe with him (ATATATATA once more), at least at the start. Yes, Buutenks eventually overpowered him but that came after a bit of attrition, and even then Buu got into his mind. It was still a better showing against Buutenks than was expected of Gohan.

Was he using most of his power for something else when Gohan and 17 attacked him? No, he wasn't. Hell, the fact that at the end of it all, Toppo was still standing is a big knock against Frieza's supposed ability to defeat him.

Also, Frieza's finger beams are not basic attacks. They are deadly precise focused power.

Like more powerful, miniature dodonpas, basically.

[Hazard]

He stood long enough to gasp curse...you before falling to the ground and being visibly done, if you want to call that still standing

And then got up even though he had been hurt by both Frieza and 17's attacks, even though the ever reliable Frieza said 'I'm going to finish this now.'

Seriously, if you're going to take someone at this word, Frieza is kind of the worst one, especially when he's in smug mode.

[Hiromi]

poop, this is why it's dangerous to go by youtube clips, still, I'd say the overall fight shows Buutenks ultimately outclassed Gohan pretty severely

And then got up even though he had been hurt by both Frieza and 17's attacks, even though the ever reliable Frieza said 'I'm going to finish this now.'

Seriously, if you're going to take someone at this word, Frieza is kind of the worst one, especially when he's in smug mode.

even if we do grant all of that it's still by far the most punishment we've seen Toppo take, Hell the finger beams were the most we've seen outside of Goku and Vegeta, even with potential variables like how Toppo's defense is when he's involved a beam struggle. After this you still have Freeza tank and survive a relatively powerful Hakai blast shortly after, a feat which frankly no one else in this rumble has.

[Cyke]

poop, this is why it's dangerous to go by youtube clips, still, I'd say the overall fight shows Buutenks ultimately outclassed Gohan pretty severely

Eventually, yes, but not without a fight, and SSJ3 Goku couldn't get the job done (to your point about potara). I'm not saying that it means Gohan beats Frieza or 17 in this scenario. Just that he's had the ability (when he trains) to hang with the big boys. Gohan's biggest weakness in this thread is that he lapsed so badly in his training that he was no longer competitive with Goku and Vegeta, but it wasn't without precedent for him to get back into the main action, and he was still among the stronger half of the team. This is the guy who outclassed his dad's powerlevel for a brief moment as a child. So even if he loses, he can still affect the match either way for 17 or Frieza.