Android 17 vs. Golden Freeza vs. Ultimate Gohan

[abmccray]

He was still able to keep up with him powerwise (their own beam struggle), still landed several solid blows, and was able to go toe-to-toe with him (ATATATATA once more), at least at the start. Yes, Buutenks eventually overpowered him but that came after a bit of attrition, and even then Buu got into his mind. It was still a better showing against Buutenks than was expected of Gohan.





Like more powerful, miniature dodonpas, basically.

Just wanted to note that's another of those big anime/manga differences. In the manga, Gohan was just straight overpowered quickly without the mind games.

[The Arbiter]

Just as a note (I have not read the whole thread yet, so apologies if this has been covered) but Frieza is currently in an undead body. MUCH more durable than the still living versions. Hence why Goku could use SSJ3 more easily when he was dead, or how the Z fighters got patched up after sparring on King Kais world, or how Vegeta managed to last so long against Kid Buu.

This may also be how Frieza managed to survive the Hakai, or how only 2 minutes after Toppo crushing his skull, he was once again on his feet yelling insults and using paralysis Ki etc.

[Hiromi]

Going back to the whole Gohan clearly isn't SSJ Blue level

This is what Goku was able to do against Toppo as base blue, not even using the kaio ken, and Vegeta was able to hold his own against him later(talking about the middle of the tournament when Cabba was ringed out, not the recent episode), further supporting that Toppo is clearly a SSJ Blueish level if not a hair below it, if Gohan had at least been able to fight on par with Toppo, his attacks made some kind of impact, and not just be completely overwhelmed there might be an argument, but he was virtually useless against him.

Even with Toppo in a beam war Freeza causing him visible pain with his attacks is a feat Gohan doesn't have, Freeza taking Sidra's Hakai blast and overcoming it and at least surviving Toppo's with enough strength to get back up are likewise feats Gohan doesn't have, never mind that Freeza has direct head to head feats with SSJ Blue that put him on that level, Gohan during their sparring match(which as I've said we've already seen Goku vary wildly in those various sparring matches) trades blows with him in Blue once with(and while he lands a blow or two they don't do anything noticeable), then once when Goku uses the Kaio Ken which results in Gohan being knocked out, that in no way whatsoever puts him on Blue level. So again, don't see a valid argument for Gohan being on par or even ahead of Freeza

[abmccray]

Goku SSB is a bad barometer when he's not kaioken because he's always sandbagging.

Vegeta SSB is implied to be above Goku SSB (more training), so he's a different barometer.

SSB isn't one set power level, as they have had major gains since it first appeared.

Current Golden Freeza is presented to be completely equal to current SSB Goku (without kaioken).

Gohan wasn't shown to be completely equal as SSB Goku was still doing better in their fight, but he did seem to be a peer. But Goku sandbags, too.

17 was even with Goku SSB a bit and was implied to be holding more in, but again, Goku sandbags a lot in Blue.

If I were to guess, I'd say Gohan is somewhere around original SSB Goku, pre gains, while Freeza is equal, post gains. And 17 is closer to the Gohan end than the Freeza end. Enough to all be somewhat peers, but Freeza having the advantage, with 17/Gohan being "who knows" in comparison to each other.

[Hiromi]

And now we get to try and figure out where Ultra Instinct and... whatever Vegeta's new form is(I personally like the fan theory that he's applied his Super Vegeta form to the God forms). As for UI we'll probably need to wait and see it again to see if Goku's fully figured out how to use it.

[BitVyper]

Ultra Instinct seems like less of a direct power increase and more a heightened state of awareness that just happens to also let him operate at his full potential. Something like Musou Tensei; the whole empty mind thing.

Of course, it's hard to argue that there's not a power increase when he took out Kefla with it, but I just attribute that to Goku powering up the biggest kamehameha he possibly could. I SUSPECT that when we see him actually master it, he'll be using it while also blue.

Goku sandbags a lot in Blue.

Yeah this is developing into a problem where it's just really hard to tell what he's doing with blue a lot of the time, especially with things like Kale.

[buutenks]

Id give this to 17 due to unlimited stamina and a super strong barrier. Gohan is below Freeza and proly around 17's level. Considering Gohan and 17 were unable to damage non GoD Toppo, while Freeza could goes to show that BP wise Golden Freeza is above both of them.

So this will be a rehash of RoF, Freeza eventually loses his power and gets weaker and then 17 stomps him, because there is no way Freeza is breaking through 17's shield. And considering 17's shield might get some more nice feats vs Jiren in ep 127, id say 17 beats both Gohan and Freeza.

[moonknight11]

Id give this to 17 due to unlimited stamina and a super strong barrier. Gohan is below Freeza and proly around 17's level. Considering Gohan and 17 were unable to damage non GoD Toppo, while Freeza could goes to show that BP wise Golden Freeza is above both of them.

So this will be a rehash of RoF, Freeza eventually loses his power and gets weaker and then 17 stomps him, because there is no way Freeza is breaking through 17's shield. And considering 17's shield might get some more nice feats vs Jiren in ep 127, id say 17 beats both Gohan and Freeza.

I agree with most of your points but I disagree with your Toppo being unhurt by Gohan and 17 point.

Against the Gohan Kamehameha he was able to brace. Vs Frieza he was focusing his energies in another direction and vulnerable from behind. He then ended up getting double blasted by frieza in the back and 17 from the front. It should also be noted that the 17 blast was the more powerful one as it overpowered the Frieza attack and went off the fighting stage.

Another bit of evidence is 17s unexpected blast distracting Toppo more than the Kamehameha he braced against moments later.

[Captain Morgan]

17 did... awfully well against Jiren compared to Freiza in this last episode. There's still time for Freiza to get in another power up, but this last episode hasn't changed my mind that the smart money is on 17 here.

[BitVyper]

A Jiren who is running at full strength now, for that matter. In fairness to Frieza, he's well past behaving in any sort of rational fashion at this point, so even though he went gold, he probably could have done better if he weren't being stupid, but then, given the feats they got tonight, I highly doubt Frieza is capable of penetrating a serious energy barrier from 17 no matter what he throws at it.

So yeah, he's so far the only person to put any sort of wound on Jiren (albeit by catching him by surprise), and he both took big shots from Jiren unguarded, and proved his barriers hold up pretty well outside of Destruction energy, and that his all-out barrier probably can't be penetrated by any other character in the series currently, save Jiren.

[Captain Morgan]

A Jiren who is running at full strength now, for that matter. In fairness to Frieza, he's well past behaving in any sort of rational fashion at this point, so even though he went gold, he probably could have done better if he weren't being stupid, but then, given the feats they got tonight, I highly doubt Frieza is capable of penetrating a serious energy barrier from 17 no matter what he throws at it.

So yeah, he's so far the only person to put any sort of wound on Jiren (albeit by catching him by surprise), and he both took big shots from Jiren unguarded, and proved his barriers hold up pretty well outside of Destruction energy, and that his all-out barrier probably can't be penetrated by any other character in the series currently, save Jiren.

Honestly, Freiza fighting stupid is basically CIS at this point, and seems preeeeeetty relevant when fighting a smarter, competitive opponent who is tailor made to rope a doping Frieza until Freiza is too exhausted to stay gold.

[BitVyper]

Honestly, Freiza fighting stupid is basically CIS at this point, and seems preeeeeetty relevant when fighting a smarter, competitive opponent who is tailor made to rope a doping Frieza until Freiza is too exhausted to stay gold.

Oh totally. It's just he doesn't GET stupid until he's losing. He is absolutely incapable of dealing with pressure, basically.

[wjowski]

Honestly if anyone doesn't think Frieza cracking under pressure is canon I invite them to watch the end of the original Frieza saga.

[Hazard]

Yeah, Frieza has two modes. Sadistically Smug when winning and Suicidally Arrogant when losing.

There is no in-between.

[BitVyper]

Honestly, the reason Goku is generally the top of the pyramid is because he figured out he was playing Exalted and specced into a largely mote neutral build that has a few ways to output a lot of power exactly when he needs it. Which makes perfect sense, since he had to learn everything the hard way and constantly deal with people stronger than him growing up. Frieza is pretty much exactly the opposite, and as such his only real trick is being very very powerful. Vegeta is similar, but he's very stubbornly devoted to making that work for him, and sometimes it does.