Android 17 vs. Golden Freeza vs. Ultimate Gohan

[nitake92]

Yeah, Freeza still hasn’t gotten rid of his REAL greatest weakness which isn’t his stamina drain but it’s the tendency to snap and make poor fighting decision out of spite & hate when he’s losing or when someone really gave him a beating. The past few episodes is repeatedly giving him a crash course as to why this isn’t the best of options. IF he makes it out of this alive and resurrected and becomes a threat once more, he’s going to have to be more calm and collected when he know he’s fighting a losing battle against overwhelming foes who can easily snap him like a twig (Jiren, Toppo, Beerus, Vegeta with his new Blue…etc)

[Darth Drizzle]

I cant see this as a legit fight for 17.

Jiren who just saw Toppo go God mode ripping space/time by doing so(then rips through 17 and Freeza) reacts to it by saying "is that all?" Finally goes full power.

Thats right, Jiren the guy who has styled over everyone else while barely moving and overpowerd every final/special attack that came his way just now powered up fully, meaning all the ridiculous feats he has was him not trying fully and while at low power mode.

Therefore it makes Zero sense to conclude that 17 would be anything but a Cell Jr to Jirens SS2 Gohan when he punched them, meaning he would turn into mist on contact, barrier or not. Also his "attack" that burt Jiren goes against the whole auto-aura defense Jiren has that repels attacks and has feats against powerful opponents.

Him powering through Hits Time Freezes/Skips and using his eyes to nullify powerful attacks is completely waved off and replaced by "he's not unstoppable, you just have to hit him really hard when distracted!" which seems like a huge cop out.

The same could/should be said for Goku/Vegeta too. They have been struggling against him the entire time while using full power and new forms galore while he remained in low power mode. NoW when Jiren goes all out and they are all hurt/tired/drained they ALL somehow keep up with him speedwise, trade blows with him strengthwise, and are not splattered by his blows or incenerated by his Nova blasts showing similar durability.

Especially Vegeta who just went all out and Beyond against Toppo(who Jiren could easily beat by his own statements) and Goku whose KKSSB when combined with Vegetas attacks couldnt even hurt/touch Jiren who was not powered up or fighting for survival at the time.

Even if Jirens super cool Sun like power up only made him .0000005% stronger that would still allow him to beat everyone going at him.

For the sake of something being about this thread and not last episode I will say that Freeza and his short cameo in this episode still makes me believe that Freeza would win over 17 and Gohan

[Hazard]

Jiren's presentation is inconsistent in that the more power he pulls out the easier to deal with he becomes.

That said, even as he is presented this episode, Golden Frieza gets literally glared into submission while 17 manages to protect Goku and Vegeta by self destructing to push away Jiren's attack.

[BitVyper]

Well it's been pretty clear that the Saiyans in particular have been getting quite a bit stronger throughout the tournament, like Saiyans do, so it's more that Jiren is pulling out more power as he gets easier to deal with. As for 17, he's been so calm and composed throughout the tournament, that it's seemed fairly obvious he wasn't going all out.

Edit: But I will say Jiren's earliest presentation now comes off a little bit weird. I think that's more due to Kale being presented in a way that suggested she was way more powerful than she actually was though.

[Cyke]

Jiren's presentation is inconsistent in that the more power he pulls out the easier to deal with he becomes.

That's my only real problem with Jiren, and it shows that the writers kind of gotten themselves into a corner. 17 reveals that super-upgraded-whatever-form Jiren's weakness is that he's wounded when he's caught by surprise by an attack.

Except, isn't that every fighter's weakness? Isn't that what everyone's been doing in the history of fighting, ever? Isn't that what Goku and Vegeta have been trying to do the whole time?

It's like a normal human saying, "ARGH! Bullets! How did you know my weakness?!"

[Cody]

Honestly, Vegetas performance against a God of Destruction, combined with his portrayal as being roughly on par with an SSB Goku using KKx20, just shows how scary Jiren is. Vegeta showed to be roughly on par with a God of Destruction, while doing no better or worse than an SSBKKx20 Goku was against Jiren. This means that, even before using his full power: Jiren was fighting evenly with 2 god of destruction level beings. One could argue that the fight between him and the Saiyan Gods would be a good representation of a fight between Jiren and the cat siblings.

Makes you wonder if he is comparable to an angel like Whis or not. He is definitely up there with a fused Zamasu now.

[abmccray]

Honestly, Vegetas performance against a God of Destruction, combined with his portrayal as being roughly on par with an SSB Goku using KKx20, just shows how scary Jiren is. Vegeta showed to be roughly on par with a God of Destruction, while doing no better or worse than an SSBKKx20 Goku was against Jiren. This means that, even before using his full power: Jiren was fighting evenly with 2 god of destruction level beings. One could argue that the fight between him and the Saiyan Gods would be a good representation of a fight between Jiren and the cat siblings.

Makes you wonder if he is comparable to an angel like Whis or not. He is definitely up there with a fused Zamasu now.

Toppo was the weakest newbie GoD ever, though, so I don't see that as a fair statement. Beerus said he hadn't figured out how to control Hakai energy properly yet, and it was also stated that GoDs are all on different levels, so, just like every SSJ isn't equal, every GoD is not equal.

[Cyke]

Toppo was the weakest newbie GoD ever, though, so I don't see that as a fair statement. Beerus said he hadn't figured out how to control Hakai energy properly yet, and it was also stated that GoDs are all on different levels, so, just like every SSJ isn't equal, every GoD is not equal.

You can blame his diabeetus.

[buutenks]

Toppo was the weakest newbie GoD ever, though, so I don't see that as a fair statement. Beerus said he hadn't figured out how to control Hakai energy properly yet, and it was also stated that GoDs are all on different levels, so, just like every SSJ isn't equal, every GoD is not equal.

Where was this stated? Or do you mean the statement Beerus made ages ago that there are GoDs stronger than him? That was proven false. All GoDs are in same level of power. Also Belmod states Toppo is no different from any GoD. Nowhere is it stated that Toppo is weakest or strongest GoD. Their Hakai level is most likely similar, what is different is their experience and combat style. And in Beerus' case, since he can partially use UI, he can dodge pretty good, better than any other GoD.

Also, Beerus did not say that, what he said was that Toppo takes a bit of time to charge up his Hakai energy.

I see no reason why people claim Toppo is weakest, medium or strongest GoD. Seems people dont like the idea that some new GoD is as strong as the other GoDs.

[Siriel]

Let's please stop pretending that the manga is canon to the anime. The two are contradictory in both events and how powers work.

[Cyke]

Where was this stated? Or do you mean the statement Beerus made ages ago that there are GoDs stronger than him? That was proven false. All GoDs are in same level of power. Also Belmod states Toppo is no different from any GoD. Nowhere is it stated that Toppo is weakest or strongest GoD. Their Hakai level is most likely similar, what is different is their experience and combat style. And in Beerus' case, since he can partially use UI, he can dodge pretty good, better than any other GoD.

Also, Beerus did not say that, what he said was that Toppo takes a bit of time to charge up his Hakai energy.

I see no reason why people claim Toppo is weakest, medium or strongest GoD. Seems people dont like the idea that some new GoD is as strong as the other GoDs.

It's fair to say he may or may not be the weakest simply because we've only seen 5 out of 12 GoDs do battle. But compared to those five, Toppo was using Hakai energy with the most build up, the least in return, and the least amount of finesse and creativity.

I myself would prefer to think that's simply lack of experience. The guy only became a GoD within the last few minutes of the tournament and was relatively promptly knocked out, of course. Akin to toddler Gohan having the power to hurt Raditz but unable to really tap into it, hence necessitating training by Piccolo. It could very well be that, if he lived the next day, he would be a better GoD. But going by feats, he wasn't threatening to rip the fabric of spacetime like Beerus and Champa, he wasn't as fast or as creative as the three GoDs who tested the arena, and he wasn't casual about his power output like the five GoDs. It's not that people don't like the idea of a new GoD that can compete with the other GoDs, but rather that he had a string of relative low showings compared to what we've seen of the others, which I also think is understandable and reasonable of Toppo as well.

Let's also consider the fact that Toppo transformed when he was almost defeated by sheer, overwhelming force. If the transformation starts from a base, then he transformed at something of a disadvantage. But even then, that wouldn't explain the lack of skill that a GoD typically displays, especially given that he's one of the Pride Troopers' leaders and tacticians.

[The Arbiter]

It was also an actual transformation. He fell out of it later. Its not like Beerus becomes fat or changes color depending on how beat up he is, or if he's sleeping etc. The other GoDs seemed more.... permanent.

And yeah Manga is vastly different

[Cyke]

It was also an actual transformation. He fell out of it later. Its not like Beerus becomes fat or changes color depending on how beat up he is, or if he's sleeping etc. The other GoDs seemed more.... permanent.

And yeah Manga is vastly different

Yeah, if we added the manga, it would probably be an even worse for Anime Toppo since all the manga GoDs fought, not just the 3. At least, until the manga catches up with GoD Toppo.

[moonknight11]

Yeah the Manga showed that the gods have varying power levels and skill and are not all equal. Which makes sense because even in the anime, it's said that Beerus is slightly stronger than Champa right? If even the twin cat gods aren't equal then it's easy to imagine bigger variance between the other Gods as they are a lot different from each other.

[Hiromi]

they get combat training from their angels so if nothing else it stands to reason the ones that are more diligent about training are stronger than the ones that aren't even if it isn't explicitly mentioned like Champa in the manga