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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm a tad confused, aren't Kathy and Kate (both Kane) essentially the same character just different interpretations?
    They were.

    When Greg Rucka introduced Kate Kane she was intended to fill that role in a new, interesting way. At that point Silver Age continuity was being revisited but probably nobody really suspected Silver Age Kathy Kane would be a concept that got revisited in any way. And so Kate was the "updated" version of Batwoman.

    But one of the tenets of Morrison's run was this "everything happened" approach that brought like ... all of Batman's weird history back into continuity in some fashion. Like it all happened, albeit, not necessarily how it was written before or how we remembered it. And much to a lot of our surprise, when he did his "Last Rites" glimpse at Batman's bullet points total career history, there was Kathy Kane, existing as a key figure in his early career. That story was made up of a lot of reference to his mind being mucked with, false memories, false glimpses at non-canonical timelines and elements of the Silver Age possibly being drug-induced hallucinations.

    So surprise surprise when Batman Incorporated # 3 came out and we started getting a new in-continuity backstory for how the original Kathy Kane was still part of continuity. Big things were done with her character for a few reasons - first to further the international spy plot happening in Incorporated and to connect with things happening with Batman and all his "imitators" or bat-themed global allies. Second, definitely to differentiate her from current incarnation Kate Kane. For instance we learn her maiden name and where she comes from so that she and Kate are no longer kind of the same character, once removed by continuity.

    So while Kate initially was indeed meant to be the modern incarnation of the same character, Morrison got cheeky and weird and brought in the original incarnation, retconned her a lot, and allowed the two characters to both exist in the same universe.

    What's more, another later retcon, this time by Marc Andreyko and this time for Kate, finally explicitly names Kate's connection to Bruce, and they are stated to be first cousins. This means that Kathy is Bruce AND Kate's AND apparently Bette's former/one-time aunt by marriage. It also means that the Kane Family Tree is WAYYYYYY WACKIER than even the Wayne Family Tree.
    Last edited by K. Jones; 02-06-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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  2. #32
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm a tad confused, aren't Kathy and Kate (both Kane) essentially the same character just different interpretations?
    Ooooh, no. Kathy is the classic character who Grant Morrison re-imagined as part of his massive Batman RIP/Inc epic. Kate is Greg Rucka's creation, a former Marine who was kicked out under Don't Ask Don't Tell, created in the mid-2000s. Rucka and Morrison were both drawing heavily from the classic character - the names, relationships, etc. have eerie parallels - but they're definitely not the same at all.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  3. #33
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I have to ask, given this huge retcon, mostly by "Cheeks" Morrison,

    would fans or readers have liked it better if Kathy, original Batwoman, was not related to Bruce, et al by marriage?

    I guess the big question is since everything is "not quite coincidence" in comics, there had to be some reason why she was originally a "Kane".

    Was Martha always a Kane? When did that happen, was it in tandem with Morrison's retcon?

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I would prefer Bruce have no living relatives and find the idea that he would have married his Aunt kind-of weird.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

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  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ooooh, no. Kathy is the classic character who Grant Morrison re-imagined as part of his massive Batman RIP/Inc epic. Kate is Greg Rucka's creation, a former Marine who was kicked out under Don't Ask Don't Tell, created in the mid-2000s. Rucka and Morrison were both drawing heavily from the classic character - the names, relationships, etc. have eerie parallels - but they're definitely not the same at all.
    Yes, but Army, not Marines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Was Martha always a Kane? When did that happen, was it in tandem with Morrison's retcon?
    I know she's been a Kane since about 2002 or 2003.
    Last edited by Caivu; 02-06-2018 at 11:32 AM.
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  6. #36
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Yes, but Army, not Marines.
    I thought she was both? This is embarrassing. I literally just bought and reread Batwoman by Rucka like two months ago.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightwingIvI View Post
    I would prefer Bruce have no living relatives and find the idea that he would have married his Aunt kind-of weird.
    That is indeed weird...
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  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ooooh, no. Kathy is the classic character who Grant Morrison re-imagined as part of his massive Batman RIP/Inc epic. Kate is Greg Rucka's creation, a former Marine who was kicked out under Don't Ask Don't Tell, created in the mid-2000s. Rucka and Morrison were both drawing heavily from the classic character - the names, relationships, etc. have eerie parallels - but they're definitely not the same at all.
    Thanks for the information Millernumber1.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I thought she was both? This is embarrassing. I literally just bought and reread Batwoman by Rucka like two months ago.
    No, she was never in the Marines. That's a common misconception though, I guess because the Marines are are popularly thought of as being the most badass branch of the US military.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  10. #40
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    No, she was never in the Marines. That's a common misconception though, I guess because the Marines are are popularly thought of as being the most badass branch of the US military.
    Huh. I did a google, and I think the reason I thought it was it's listed on several wikias. You should go fix that and prevent me from making more mistakes.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  11. #41
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Ms. Kane's mask-age was beyond epic. Between that and rocking a canary yellow bodysuit, she's was always so extra and we are all the better for it as a society.

    IMG_0293.jpg

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I'm most likely in the minority here, but back in the Earth 2 days of yore having Batwoman and Bat-Girl retconned into members of the JSA would have been fun.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I'm most likely in the minority here, but back in the Earth 2 days of yore having Batwoman and Bat-Girl retconned into members of the JSA would have been fun.
    Making them actual members wouldn't have necessarily made sense, but having them appear in an adventure or two would have been nice. (Heck, I'm not even sure Dick Grayson as Robin was actually made a full-fledged member prior to his reaching adulthood; back in the day, he was just an "honorary" member.)

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Making them actual members wouldn't have necessarily made sense, but having them appear in an adventure or two would have been nice. (Heck, I'm not even sure Dick Grayson as Robin was actually made a full-fledged member prior to his reaching adulthood; back in the day, he was just an "honorary" member.)
    Honestly, I just want to see Batwoman, Bat-Girl, and Wildcat versus Sportsmaster, Huntress, and Artemis. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kathy and Ted might have had a thing for each other if she had been a member of the Justice Society. Bats and Cats and all.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Found this on the internet when looking for something else; listed under "Sheldon Moldoff Batwoman Batmobile".

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