The film that did the most damage to superheroes was ________!

[Starter Set]

I have to ask if it was really Batman Forever that did the evil deed, and Batman & Robin was just doubling down on the dumpster fire?

I think that there just was a great dichotomy between what people wanted Batman to be in movie and what movie studios were given them.

I mean, Batman the animated series started in 1992 and lasted till 1995 and enjoyed the success we know. An ultra campy version wasn't what people wanted i think in 1997.

[Zero Hunter]

Batman and Robin set superhero movies back at least a decade. I agree that the studio was just so out of touch with what people liked about Batman and were basing everything off the old Batman TV show. Batman Forever was bad that is true, but if they had coarse corrected with Batman and Robin instead of leaning even more into the silly it could have rebounded. They didn't and the movie is still considered the worst superhero movie of all time and it put studios off of even trying a new series for almost 10 years.

[DrNewGod]

I think that there just was a great dichotomy between what people wanted Batman to be in movie and what movie studios were given them.

I mean, Batman the animated series started in 1992 and lasted till 1995 and enjoyed the success we know. An ultra campy version wasn't what people wanted i think in 1997.

I agree, with a qualification. I don't think it was the studios, it was the director.

IMO, all the studio understood was that this guy in the cape and pointy-ear-mask (oh, yeah, isn't that the same franchise as some dad-bod guy back in the 60s? whatever!), that guy was suddenly making them a small nation's GPD of boodle, and there was a new director on it that also seemed to know how to make movies people go to see.

What could go wrong by bolting together two things that usually work separately?

Edit: That's not to say that studios were faultless. The studios were negligent in examining what made the previous films work, and what the times called for. They let a director drive it on to the rocks.

[sunofdarkchild]

I have to ask if it was really Batman Forever that did the evil deed, and Batman & Robin was just doubling down on the dumpster fire?

No. Forever was a bigger success than its immediate predecessor and generally well-liked at the time. There would not have been a Batman and Robin if Batman Forever 'did the evil deed.'

[sunofdarkchild]

I agree, with a qualification. I don't think it was the studios, it was the director.

IMO, all the studio understood was that this guy in the cape and pointy-ear-mask (oh, yeah, isn't that the same franchise as some dad-bod guy back in the 60s? whatever!), that guy was suddenly making them a small nation's GPD of boodle, and there was a new director on it that also seemed to know how to make movies people go to see.

What could go wrong by bolting together two things that usually work separately?

It was the studios. Shuelmacher wanted to make a live-action version of Batman Year One, and the studio told him to make a more kid-friendly Batman after the backlash against the disgusting parts of Batman Returns led to a loss of merchandising revenue. He never had the freedom any of the other directors had.

[WillieMorgan]

It's got to be Batman & Robin. Batman Forever really was sub-par but B&R was on a whole different level of ineptitude and could have done some serious long term damage to super-hero films had the first X-Men film not course corrected things.

Superman IV - The Quest For Peace was similarly detrimental. It plunged Superman into development hell for nearly 20 years. It will be interesting to see how Marvel correct the Fantastic Four as well.

[Osiris-Rex]

Batman Forever or Batman and Robin. I'm not big on Batman Forever and I'm tempted like some to blame it for Batman and Robin and the consequences B&R caused.

I felt Batman Forever was worse. I could enjoy Batman & Robin for how gloriously awful it was, but Batman Forever was just boring as well as stupid. They are on Netflix and I was able to enjoy
Batman & Robin for its terribleness, but I only lasted about 20 minutes into Batman Forever.

I think another movie that killed comic book female superhero movies for quite a while was Supergirl. Supergirl came out in 1984 and it wasn't until 2004 that Catwoman came out, 30 years later.
At least we only had to wait 13 years to get Wonder Woman.

[AnakinFlair]

Batman and Robin.

[BeastieRunner]

I would argue none since the genre is still going strong today, with no major signs of a decline.

Character wise? Superman IV set Superman pretty far back, worse than Forever did Batman. We got a new Batman in a faster time-frame than a new Superman.

Barrier wise? Elektra and Catwoman set woman's solo films back.

[DrNewGod]

It was the studios. Shuelmacher wanted to make a live-action version of Batman Year One, and the studio told him to make a more kid-friendly Batman after the backlash against the disgusting parts of Batman Returns led to a loss of merchandising revenue. He never had the freedom any of the other directors had.

I stand corrected. See why I start these things? To reduce my own ignorance.

[Osiris-Rex]

I stand corrected. See why I start these things? To reduce my own ignorance.

Stories I heard was that one of the studio heads wasn't really happy with Batman. He had wanted something more along the lines of the Batman TV show. He was "what the hell is this?".
But the movie made so much money and got so much praise that Burton was allowed to make Batman Returns. Then when BR got so much negative publicity and under performed at the
box office, he felt justified and for all practical purposes fired Burton. So with Schumacher he got the kind of Batman movie he wanted all along.

[AnakinFlair]

It was the studios. Shuelmacher wanted to make a live-action version of Batman Year One, and the studio told him to make a more kid-friendly Batman after the backlash against the disgusting parts of Batman Returns led to a loss of merchandising revenue. He never had the freedom any of the other directors had.

I've heard that story, too. The problem I have with it is look at the tone Schumacher set with Batman Forever. It was already going into camp, and B&R just dived into the camp head first. I shudder to think what a Schumacher Batman: Year One would look like.

the funny thing about Batman Returns was that they had cast and costumed Marlon Waynes as Robin, but decided to hold him off for the next movie because there were already so many characters. The best part? He had a pay-or-play contract, which means he got paid for Batman Returns and I think Batman Forever. And Jack Nicholson famously got paid for Batman, Batman Returns, and Batman Forever. I love Hollywood excess.

I've always thought that Batman and Robin killed comic book movies for a time- and I think it really did hurt the interest in them- but looking at a list of comic book movies, that isn't quite the case. I thought it would be interesting to list the major comic book movies released between 1997 and 2017, which shows that while we got some really crappy movies, most often we got some great movies as well in the same year.


In 1997 we got Batman and Robin, Spawn, and Steel (that trifecta alone should have killed comic book movies for all times). We also got Men in Black, but I don't know how many people realized that was based off of a comic book.

In 1998, we got Blade, which was a modest hit. Not a major character, and again I'm not sure how many people knew it was based off of a comic.

2000 gave us X-Men, which I think started the revival of the CBM. We also got Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, which is one of my favorite animated movies and was slated to be released into theaters, IIRC, before they pulled it due to reactions from Columbine.

2002 gave us the double whammie of Blade 2 and Spider-man, probably the first A-List comic book hero on the screen since Batman (solo. I think the X-Men were a-list). There was also MiB II and Road to Perdition.

2003 Gave us Daredevil (one step forward, two steeps back), Ang Lee's Hulk (THREE steps back), League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (forget steps, a QUANTUM LEAP back), and X2: X-Men United (which pretty much made us forget about the previous three movies).

2004 gave us Blade: Trinity, Catwoman, and The Punisher with Thomas Jane. It also gave us Hellboy, Spider-Man 2, and The incredibles.

2005 gave us the real Batman: Year One with Nolan's Batman Begins(marking Batman's return to the silver screen for the first time since B&R), along with Sin City and V for Vendetta. We also got Constantine, Elektra, and Fantastic Four staring Captain America himself, Chris Evans.

2006 gave us 300, Superman Returns, and X-Men: The Last Stand.

2007 was Spider-man 3, Ghost Rider, and Fantastic Four 2. It also gave us Supermanoomsday, which launched DC's true animated movie slate.

2008 gave us The Dark Knight, which I would argue is one of, if not the, best comic book movies of all time. We also got Iron Man, which launched the Marvel Cinematic Universe, along with The Incredible Hulk. Also released were Hellboy II, Hancock, Jumper, Punisher: Warzone, Wanted, and The Spirit, along with a coupld DC and Marvel animated movies.

2009 gave us X:Men Origins: Wolverine, and a slew of animated movies.

2010 had Iron Man 2, Kick-Ass, and Red, along with Jonah Hex and The Losers.

2011 gave us Captain America: the First Avenger, Thor, X-Men: First Class; it also gave us Green Lantern.

2012 was The Avengers, along with The Dark Knight Rises, Dredd and MiB III. It also had The Amazing Spider-Man And Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance.

2013 gave us Iron Man 3, Man of Steel (marking Superman's return to the silver screen for the first time since Superman IV)Thro: The Dark World and The Wolverine. We also got Kick-Ass 2, Red 2, and a little French indie film you may have heard of called Blue is the Warmest Color.

2014 gave us Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, 300: Rise of an Empire, Snowpiercer, Big Hero 6, and X-Men: Days of Future Past. We also got Sin City: a Dame to Kill for, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, The Amazing Spider-Man 2, and The Scribbler, a little indie probably best know for showing a topless Katie Cassidy sex scene.

2015 gave us ant Man, Avengers, Age of Ultron, and Kingsman: the Secret Service. It also gave us Fantastic Four, a movie best known for all the stuff that went on behind the scenes with director Josh Trank.

2016 had Captain America: Civil War, Deadpool, Doctor Strange, Suicide Squad, and X-Men: Apocalypse. It also had Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, which at least is a divisive movie.

2017 had Guardians of the Galaxy 2, The Lego Batman Movie, Logan, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Wonder Woman, and Thor: Ragnarok. It also had Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets, Justice League, and Kingsman 2: The Golden Circle.

So I guess nothing really killed comic book movies, it's just that some movies are so bad that the characters get put on ice for a while.

[sunofdarkchild]

I've heard that story, too. The problem I have with it is look at the tone Schumacher set with Batman Forever. It was already going into camp, and B&R just dived into the camp head first. I shudder to think what a Schumacher Batman: Year One would look like.

Batman Forever had campy villains, but it treated its heroes seriously outside of a few very cringy lines. It delved into Batman's psyche in a way no film had before and had a Robin obsessed with committing murder. And even with the neon lights it was overall very dark visually. The most interesting thing about Forever is that it was originally much darker than the final product. A number of scenes were cut that would have drastically changed the movie. They shot an alternate opening in Arkham, had additional scenes explaining that being Batman is Bruce punishing himself, and a scene showing what he is punishing himself for. Had that last scene been left in the whole movie would have come together and the title would have made much more sense. That scene in particular baffles me as to why they left it out. And lest we forget, Batman Returns already had some truly terrible dialogue and ridiculous camp like the army of penguins with rockets on their backs, in addition to being gross a lot of the time.

Batman and Robin also has serious moments. The scenes with Bruce and Alfred are really well written, directed, and acted. The problem is they don't belong in that movie. It's not like Forever where its mostly serious other than the villains. It's that its only those scenes that are serious.

[BeastieRunner]

I've seen this pop up twice in this thread now.

What was gross in Batman Returns?

[AJBopp]

Kind of depends on what you mean by "damage," but if we take it to mean "what prevented good superhero films from even being attempted" then I would go with Raiders Of The Lost Ark. It led the way to a 20 year domination of action/adventure movies with Arnold and Sylvester and Eddie and Bruce and Mel...on and on. More importantly, they showed studios that you could make these kinds of movies without the risk of putting "long underwear characters" on the screen for which, outside of two universally recognized characters, there was no precedent for success for.