View Poll Results: Which One Is The Lucky Girl?

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  • Batgirl - Barbara Gordon

    61 51.26%
  • Starfire - Koriand'r

    58 48.74%
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  1. #136
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Maps is the only one for Damian.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The reason's do matter. You attributing things to Babs and Kory that their characters didn't and don't really influence. Kory was there but she is not the reason he was there or the reason he became Nightwing. She is not what took him there. Babs isn't what makes Dick a Bat character, and Kory isn't what makes Dick a Titans. Neither takes him to places he can't already go.

    And so what if he was as Nightwing doing it in his own solo title called Nightwing. He's fully capable of not living in Gotham regardless of Babs or Kory. Technically he didn't live in Gotham when he was with either. Even if Bludhaven was Gotham light.
    Actually it does, the bat editorial team made sure of that, dick 's relationship with kory and then babs was the driving force for his solo series. It's really his only accomplishment since his ongoing solo, having a different love interest that was not starfire. While the whole time DC forgot to develop to a career, a proper villain, supporting characters. It's been 20+ years, Believe it or not nightwing is stagnant.. as a fan I'm not happy on how the bat team has handle the character over the years.

  3. #138
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The reason's do matter. You attributing things to Babs and Kory that their characters didn't and don't really influence. Kory was there but she is not the reason he was there or the reason he became Nightwing. She is not what took him there. Babs isn't what makes Dick a Bat character, and Kory isn't what makes Dick a Titans. Neither really takes him to places he can't already go.

    And so what if he was doing it as Nightwing in his own solo title called Nightwing. He's fully capable of not living in Gotham regardless of Babs or Kory. Technically he didn't live in Gotham when he was with either. Even if Bludhaven was Gotham light.

    Kory's a great character, but she lacks the influence or sustainability to really take anyone anywhere. Her world is the Titans. A world and franchise Dick is already firmly entrenched into regardless of Kory. Even though she with outquestion made the Titan's world better and bigger. Adding space and cosmic's elements to it. But Kory herself has not really develop outside of the Titans bubble.
    Babs arguably has more potential to take Dick to different places as she's part of a world and a franchise he is not, BoP, and could connect him to characters he would otherwise not interact with. Like BC and GA. Though someone new like Jessica Cruz or Power Girl could expand on that even more then either at this point.
    Kory is explicitly mentioned by Dick himself for his growing into a man and being inspired to take on his own adult identity. She played a big role in the stories leading up to Nightwing and there is no getting around that. Its in the published material, plain as day. Maybe she doesn't have to play a role in the story, but she did.

    So far, Dick doing the solo act in a Nightwing title is usually Batman (or Daredevil) lite. Its sustainable obviously, but hardly stellar for a character who should be A-list and is actually keeping him B-list. The Titans franchise ran out of gas and never recovered, but it's a shame he couldn't stay in the larger DC universe. The most interesting things that happened since were when they did Agent 37 or just made him Batman II briefly.

    The BOP title isn't doing so hot right now. Salvation doesn't lie there, at least as of now. Again, I'm on your side in thinking of Babs as his OTP, but there hasn't been much so far to show that romance working without being tied to the Bat franchise. It could, but hasn't happened yet.

  4. #139
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Maps is the only one for Damian.
    On this we 100% agree.

  5. #140
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonwix View Post
    Actually it does, the bat editorial team made sure of that, dick 's relationship with kory and then babs was the driving force for his solo series. It's really his only accomplishment since his ongoing solo, having a different love interest that was not starfire. While the whole time DC forgot to develop to a career, a proper villain, supporting characters. It's been 20+ years, Believe it or not nightwing is stagnant.. as a fan I'm not happy on how the bat team has handle the character over the years.
    You don't have to tell me Nightwing is stagnant. I was the Nightwing is stagnant guy for a long time around here, lol. But your recollection is not quite accurate. The driving force for his solo series was trying to to establish him a solo world. Where they were developing him his own city (like that city or not), gave him a new job, and created a slew of new villains and supporting characters. Course they nuked it all, and honestly some of it should have been nuked, but Babs was hardly the driving force for his solo series. At that time, when he was with Babs, the stuff with Bludhaven was new and not stagnate yet. The stagnation came later. Where they just stopped wanting to try or do anything new with him at all. And while the Bat team most defiantly has handle the character poorly over the years, there is also some good. Same can't really be said for the Titans these last 20+ years.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You don't have to tell me Nightwing is stagnant. I was the Nightwing is stagnant guy for a long time around here, lol. But your recollection is not quite accurate. The driving force for his solo series was trying to to establish him a solo world. Where they were developing him his own city (like that city or not), gave him a new job, and created a slew of new villains and supporting characters. Course they nuked it all, and honestly some of it should have been nuked, but Babs was hardly the driving force for his solo series. At that time, when he was with Babs, the stuff with Bludhaven was new and not stagnate yet. The stagnation came later. Where they just stopped wanting to try or do anything new with him at all. And while the Bat team most defiantly has handle the character poorly over the years, there is also some good. Same can't really be said for the Titans these last 20+ years.
    LOL. Yeah i know i have hovered around this forum for a year and read your rants on dc about about Dick. It may not have started that way in the first 2- 3 years of his solo series. But it ended up that way anyway. Yes. The titans is mess in the comic world. At least dc is doing some thing with them in media and they are popular.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Kory is explicitly mentioned by Dick himself for his growing into a man and being inspired to take on his own adult identity. She played a big role in the stories leading up to Nightwing and there is no getting around that. Its in the published material, plain as day. Maybe she doesn't have to play a role in the story, but she did.

    So far, Dick doing the solo act in a Nightwing title is usually Batman (or Daredevil) lite. Its sustainable obviously, but hardly stellar for a character who should be A-list and is actually keeping him B-list. The Titans franchise ran out of gas and never recovered, but it's a shame he couldn't stay in the larger DC universe. The most interesting things that happened since were when they did Agent 37 or just made him Batman II briefly.

    The BOP title isn't doing so hot right now. Salvation doesn't lie there, at least as of now. Again, I'm on your side in thinking of Babs as his OTP, but there hasn't been much so far to show that romance working without being tied to the Bat franchise. It could, but hasn't happened yet.
    Um Batman 2 and Agent of Spyral came out of Batman franchise. Titans cant even give him Deathstroke now lol cause even Slade is supposedly too cool for them. Just a matter of time before Batman takes him for himself and then Dick wont even have an arch enemy from the Titans to tie him.
    I also think Batman lite and Daredevil lite is looked upon as being worse than it is. Both characters have the strongest works written in comics. So yes while it keeps him B list atleast it beats whatever list Roy Harper, Donna Troy and Garth fall in.

  8. #143
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    WOW... 47-47.. I never expected this... I am the vote 48 of Starfire..

    I prefer Starfire for Grayson than Barbara.. Without Burnside existence, maybe Barbara..
    Last edited by adrikito; 02-09-2018 at 10:49 AM.

  9. #144
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    Um Batman 2 and Agent of Spyral came out of Batman franchise. Titans cant even give him Deathstroke now lol cause even Slade is supposedly too cool for them. Just a matter of time before Batman takes him for himself and then Dick wont even have an arch enemy from the Titans to tie him.
    I also think Batman lite and Daredevil lite is looked upon as being worse than it is. Both characters have the strongest works written in comics. So yes while it keeps him B list atleast it beats whatever list Roy Harper, Donna Troy and Garth fall in.
    Just straight up being Batman's successor is better than being what is often discount Batman. At least then he gets a A-list identity and a better city to live in.

    Agent 37 was using Morrison concepts no one else was using, and more importantly he was doing stuff Bruce doesn't really do. Or anyone else in the Bat family for that matter at the time.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Just straight up being Batman's successor is better than being what is often discount Batman. At least then he gets a A-list identity and a better city to live in.

    Agent 37 was using Morrison concepts no one else was using, and more importantly he was doing stuff Bruce doesn't really do. Or anyone else in the Bat family for that matter at the time.
    When you're a street level character Batman's shadow is something that is going to be encountered. Miller wrote Daredevil the way he wanted to write Batman transforming the manner in which DD was written. Since then Bendis, Brubaker and even Nocenti have written acclaimed runs. Then he brought those sensibilities to Batman and here he transformed the landscape of the entire comic dom. Batman has enough good stories and runs that I cant even list them. Priest wrote his Black Panther with the idea that he'd never get a real shot at Batman thus wrote his inner Batman on to Panther. Moon Knight is accused of being a ripoff as is Green Arrow. Morrison's Batman and Brubaker's Cap America are constantly compared and ofcourse Orlando's Midnighter.There is simply put no escaping Batman's shadow. You dont even have to be a DC character for that.

    Many of these characters at one time or another have been dismissed as discount Batmen. But they have acclaimed runs and I think Dick can too. Seeley's run and Tomasi's brief stint were very strong. I think there is definitely potential. Lemire wrote an acclaimed run for Green Arrow after the character was subjected to years of crap. Dick hasn't had it anywhere near as bad.

    Those concepts still originated from Batman franchise.

  11. #146
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    Bruce Wayne and Damian Wayne.
    So.... You want Damian as Slade son.. no?

  12. #147
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    Hell no lol

  13. #148
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    Hell no lol
    You put his father as his soulmate(not grayson)... I imaginated that you wanted that..

  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Dick is always going to be connected to the Bat mythos and franchise. That's where he came from, and he's always going to have one foot in the Cave. Assuming anything else is foolhardy.

    But just because he's tied to that mythology doesn't mean he can't have his own world.

    Hell, Conner Kent built an entire supporting cast, rogues gallery, and setting for himself far removed from Metropolis or the Kents or Superman, and held that down for many years. Supergirl has done the same. No one is going to tell me that Dick Grayson cannot achieve what those two did. He just needs a writer and editor who will allow him to reach his full scope and potential. Honestly, I'd almost think DC is afraid that if Nightwing was written to his full capacity he'd outsell Batman.

    And just because he's going to be tied to Gotham doesn't mean Babs is the logical place for his (romantic) journey to end. I see the logic behind the argument, but its just one option among many.

    No matter who Dick is dating, or not dating, the character is fully capable of standing on his own, holding down his own mythos, and being successful without relying on the Bat. Dick is a strong enough character he could do anything regardless of who is at home waiting for him. He could be a street level vigilante while dating Kori, or a planet jumping Silver Age style adventurer while dating Babs.

    Nightwing's "parent" franchise is just where he came from. It doesn't have to define him, and for many years, it didnt.
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  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    When you're a street level character Batman's shadow is something that is going to be encountered. Miller wrote Daredevil the way he wanted to write Batman transforming the manner in which DD was written. Since then Bendis, Brubaker and even Nocenti have written acclaimed runs. Then he brought those sensibilities to Batman and here he transformed the landscape of the entire comic dom. Batman has enough good stories and runs that I cant even list them. Priest wrote his Black Panther with the idea that he'd never get a real shot at Batman thus wrote his inner Batman on to Panther. Moon Knight is accused of being a ripoff as is Green Arrow. Morrison's Batman and Brubaker's Cap America are constantly compared and ofcourse Orlando's Midnighter.There is simply put no escaping Batman's shadow. You dont even have to be a DC character for that.

    Many of these characters at one time or another have been dismissed as discount Batmen. But they have acclaimed runs and I think Dick can too. Seeley's run and Tomasi's brief stint were very strong. I think there is definitely potential. Lemire wrote an acclaimed run for Green Arrow after the character was subjected to years of crap. Dick hasn't had it anywhere near as bad.

    Those concepts still originated from Batman franchise.
    It's crazy how often characters get wrongly compared to Batman. Moon Knight is a (usually) wealthy vigilante with cool gadgets... that is it. They aren't alike in any other ways. Same for Green Arrow and a lot of others. On the Lemire run, I always think of that run as proof that a book can improve dramatically from one issue to the next. Has there ever been a book that went from so low to so high so suddenly? No book or character is hopeless, they just don't have the right team currently.

    Dick is such a different character than Bruce that I don't understand the argument. To me, he is outside of Batman's shadow, has his own identity, and has for a long time.

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