Richard Grayson's Soulmate

[Godlike13]

If Dicks been going backwards after Wolfman's Titans, what direction have the others been going?

[byrd156]

If Dicks been going backwards after Wolfman's Titans, what direction have the others been going?

They've been pushed and pulled in every direction but somehow ended up further back.

[Badou]

I've been critical of Dixon's Nightwing run in some aspects, but him and the Batman office saved Dick's character given the train wreck the Titans franchise turned into in the 90s. If the Batman office didn't take Dick back and turn him into a solo character I think Dick would be far worse off than he is now. He would have been anchored to that sinking ship that is the Titans franchise and wouldn't have had an outlet to somewhat escape it with his solo series. Sure, his solo series and situation is far from perfect, but he is much better off than what the alternative would have been I think.

[Ascended]

It's like he will always be in Batman's shadow

Well, from what I can tell DC really does believe that's where he's most viable. Nightwing hasn't moved further out of Bruce's orbit because DC thinks that Dick being there is beneficial to the Bat IP. They don't see Nightwing as a independent IP, he's part of the Bat franchise. So of course they're not going to let him spread his wings and grow too far from home.

He'd need to move some Harley-level merchandise before DC started to consider whether they might profit more from a strong Nightwing franchise than they are from having Nightwing add his weight to Batman's revenue stream.

I think what we need is for a writer to come in that DC mostly ignores, who can then knock out a home run that'll build slowly from positive word of mouth, and once DC realizes what kind of quality they stumbled upon, trade sales will be in and the proof of Dick's potential will be staring them in the face.

[Rac7d*]

And that's a bad thing?

Nightwing *doesnt* have to be a lesser version of Batman. Dick's got a lot more to his character than just Gotham stuff. And he might benefit greatly from a wider scope.

Additionally, a love interest like Karen (or Jesse Quick) or Kori or some other superhuman doesn't have to throw the setting's focus off either. We're talking about a relationship, not a sidekick. Just because they're dating doesnt mean Nightwing and Power Girl/Jesse Quick/Starfire/whoever are running around together constantly. Nightwing might spend his night fighting street crime, while PG is dealing with Per Degaton with the JSA. They can get together for dinner afterwards.

Batman has superhuman friends and co-workers but that doesn't impact Gotham. Nightwing can have a superhuman love interest without that impacting Bludhaven (or wherever).

Batman Supefriends don't interfere with Gotham because they don't interfere. He never call upon them for help in any crisis You cant be more super then say Black Canary. To do long term work in gotham or Bludhaven, and they are not gonna change Batman world so Dick can date a superpowered woman. Dick cant be in a commited relationship with Karen or Kori and say bye im off on patrol for 50 issues, thease woman don't stay home lol.Esp Kori she loves to be by his side. Its just not happening. Dick also will never ever be far removed from Bruce.


Defacer/Shawn is the only type of alternate relationship he can have because she doesn't majorly alter any writers world

[byrd156]

I've been critical of Dixon's Nightwing run in some aspects, but him and the Batman office saved Dick's character given the train wreck the Titans franchise turned into in the 90s. If the Batman office didn't take Dick back and turn him into a solo character I think Dick would be far worse off than he is now. He would have been anchored to that sinking ship that is the Titans franchise and wouldn't have had an outlet to somewhat escape it with his solo series. Sure, his solo series and situation is far from perfect, but he is much better off than what the alternative would have been I think.

Dixon's Nightwing and Grayson's Titans run were incredible for the character. The early 90s weren't great to him but I really think he was one of the best parts of the 90s.

[Moonwix]

If Dicks been going backwards after Wolfman's Titans, what direction have the others been going?

Headed to the DC guillotine.

[Moonwix]

Dixon's Nightwing and Grayson's Titans run were incredible for the character. The early 90s weren't great to him but I really think he was one of the best parts of the 90s.

The 90s was bad for everyone in general. So bad it was, that the comic industry is still trying to recover from that era.

[Starrius]

The 90s was bad for everyone in general. So bad it was, that the comic industry is still trying to recover from that era.

yeah...like the Spider-Man Clone Saga
UGH!

Before that, they were trying to make Spider-Man dark like Batman

that whole webbed himself up in the cocoon after he found out May was sick - Peter Parker no more
that was some creepy stuff
I'd thought Mary Jane would pack her bags and leave him for good

[byrd156]

The 90s was bad for everyone in general. So bad it was, that the comic industry is still trying to recover from that era.

Awful for Marvel but DC didn't do too bad. I'll take what we had then over now in a heartbeat.

[Starrius]

I have read the arguments about Kory's instinct to kill and Dick struggling with that to point out why Kory is wrong for Dick.
Kory actually changed her attitude about killing after her time in South Africa. After Dick and Kory reunited, Dick even acknowledged that Kory changed.

Teen Titans Spotlight on: Starfire
issues #1 and #2
published August ,September 1986


issue #1
Starfire sees a woman being burnt to death and tries to help out
She learns about Apartheid in South Africa.
This story shows that she maybe naive but she's not stupid.

Starfire is being told:
Bad show out there. These blacks have been causing us all manner of GRIEF. Good to know some AMERICANS can see what is really going on here.

You know blacks are like children. ...
They don't understand such complexities as GOVERNMENT and POLITICS.
AS they have their OWN homelands, they need PASSPORTS to enter ours. Even YOUR country demands outsiders carry passports,eh?

Starfire says:
Why do you keep saying they're like CHILDREN? I have friends...I know leaders...even SCIENTISTS.

Starfire is told:
Again, They are AMERICANS. Not savages. Our blacks live AWAY from families for 11 months. They live HERE in single hostels...
They PREFER that to living home. They have NO instinct for family. No feelings of LOVE.

Starfire says:
That doesn't sound right.

Starfire is told:
You're the one who HELPED our men, eh? You did GOOD, miss. Real good.
You SAVED lives, miss...We thank you.
All of South Africa wants to thank you.
And DON'T let the reporters make you NERVOUS...You KNOW how they are...always with the questions...always ready to lay blame....

Starfire says:
I know about reporters. I know what they've said about the Titans in the past.
But I also know what you people are saying is WRONG. I may be NAIVE about Earth, but I'm NOT stupid.
I haven't said much until now because I didn't understand and couldn't believe what I was hearing.
But I've traveled THROUOUT the universe...I've seen more than ANY of you have.
And I know a LIE when I hear one.
Those people you're beating up aren't any different than you.
But you're in CONTROL and all you're doing is trying to keep others in LINE so you can maintain your control.
I'm not going to listen to your lies any longer

Starfire also says:
No, You want to take ADVANTAGE of my beng here. You don't CARE about me. ...Otherwise your ASSISTANT wouldn't be HOLDING that rifle, would he?
I never CARED about politics before. I've never even heard of South Africa, and I don't CARE to hear about it now. I'm LEAVING.
Throughout the Universe, you tyrants all act the same.
You try to INTIMIDATE those who don't believe by using FORCE.
Well, that doesn't work with ME.

Starfire thought:
Dick once told me about World War 2 and the concentration camp tortures...
...I thought people LEARNED from those atrocities.
I thought those things didn't happen any more.
I thought this planet GROWN UP!
There are OTHERS here.......Political prisoners, not criminals.
But they're not staying prisoners.
And after helping Sonto, I'm coming back..
...And I'm going to finish what I began.
I've never really looked around, never really CARED what was happening on Earth.
But this is MY planet now, too.
And I've GOT to care.
Unwittingly, my father helped RUIN our world by caving in to our enemies rather than fighting for what was right.
I won't do that here on Earth.
I've got to CARE.


issue #2
Starfire says:
I - I was so angry at the way this country treat its people....
...so mad at their tortures and perverted laws that I lashed out without thinking, without reason.

and, my God, I -- I killed the one man who could have helped this country see the truth.
I killed Father Mandutu.

Starfire thinks:
How many times have Dick and Donna WARNED me about my PASSIONS?
How many times have I ignored them? And now...And now, a good man has died..because of me!
This place is MADNESS....This country is corrupt and evil....because it PRETENDS to something...something BETTER.
And I let my power take control of me like this government uses its power to let a minority control the MAJORITY.
How different things are when you UNDERSTAND the truth. At first, I saw blacks torturing other blacks - setting a pregnant woman on FIRE.
It was horrible...unjustified, even by the excuses they gave for their actions.
They said she was an informer.
But then I learned the pain they suffer daily.
Their lives are filled with horrifying desperation.
Father Nelson Manutu did what he could to help his people..
...And because of that he was kidnapped.
...but that makes no difference.
Then, mad and almost mindless, I destroyed everything I could to rescue him...only to kill him in the process.

I have to think this through....to understand what's happened and what I've done.
If only, I knew where Dick was.
He could help me now.
When I've tried my most to HELP, EVERYTHING has gone wrong.
I wanted to save Tamaran, instead I nearly destroyed it.
I wanted to free these people from tyranny, and I killed their leader.
On Tamaran our people believed in the DUAL sides of man.
That one LOVES those close to you, and HATES those who are our enemies.
And when we fight, we fight to win.
There are no compromises.
I've lived with those beliefs all my life, and I've never QUESTIONED their truth.
But now, here on Earth, I'm forced to...because I can't accept the RESULTS of my actions.
And I can't LIVE with myself after what I have done.
I'm no longer Tamaranean....What was right there is NOT right here.
Like it or not, I've become an EARTHLING.
So I have to accept the CONSEQUENCES of my actions.
And though I intended to do good...
...What I did was anything but.
Dick, what you've wanted all these months has finally happened.
I've accepted your ways...completely without reservations.
And now that I have...
...We will never see each other again.

Starfire thought:
Dick always says I should think LOGICALLY.
I'm going to do that now.
And maybe CLEAR UP what happened.
Why was Madutu in that building ALONE?
Nobody else was found.
Maybe his wife Adia is right ---It was a setup.
It would be easy to GOAD me into attacking.
They knew how ANGRY I was...and a little checking around would tell them I USUALLY give-in to my temper. Sometimes all too quickly.
Which means that they HAD to know what I was coming.

Starfire did some investigating.
She forced the white South African soldiers to reveal the location of the police computers.
She checked files on Mandutu, and she found out that he was a major voice to end their racist ways.
She found the document showed on television without an original.
She goes to the morgue.
After seeing a bullet hole in Father Mandutu's head, she realized that she didn't kill him and that she was being used.
She was made to believe that she killed him.

Starfire says:
They DID use me..
Made me believe I killed him.
They've convinced everyone else that I'm a MURDERER!
Maybe I should become one.
Maybe I should become one.
Maybe I should find them, and --
No! I won't. I can't
I'm no longer Tamaranean....I can't allow my EMOTIONS to overwhelm me to the point of wanting to kill my foes.
There are other ways.
Dick and Donna have tried to CONVINCE me of that for years, but I had to come to that decision myself.

speaking to the dead Father Manitu, she says:
Father, your life was spent teaching others that the open hand was more powerful than the clenched fist.
You've helped teach ME that as well.
Rest well, Mandutu. You're life's work has NOT died with you.

She confronts the captain, picks him up, and flies off with him after he threatens the black South African people
She forced the South African captain to tell the truth about what really happened on television

She says in front of the black South Africans and being televised:
Nobody is going to die today.
Not even you, though the idea sorely TEMPTS me more than you could know.
But I want people to know the truth.
I want them to know what YOU did.
It's only when the LIES are stripped away, when the TRUTH can be seen and understood....can there be FREEDOM.
Nelson Mandutu was killed by a BULLET. He was dead BEFORE I ever got to that building.
But you put him there knowing I'd come charging in and blow up everything without thinking.
You USED me and tried to use the blacks by inciting them to riot...so your men could MURDER them with impunity.
But that won't work now, captain.
You can't hold back the truth, and you can't withhold freedom forever.
The countries of the free world are refusing to go along with the policies of apartheid.
The days of supremacy of one race over another are OVER. And it's just a matter of time before this disgusting system COLLAPSES of its own evil.
Then the rebuilding will start.
The blacks will gain the SELF-RESPECT which you people have torn from them.
Father Mandutu said that slaves have ALWAYS tossed off the shackles of repression and gained the freedom they craved.
History is on OUR SIDE, Captain. Freedom will be theirs, and nobody, not you or this government or any other DICTATOR can hold it back.
The march for peace will continue.

Starfire was told that the government said that the captain was working on his own and they say they will be prosectued.
Starfire wants to stay in South Africa and help Adia Mandutu, but she is told she can do more for them by letting others know the truth.
The story ends with Starfire flying away from South Africa
with
The greatest good comes not from the closed fist...
..but from the open hand.

In the story, Starfire came to the realization that killing is wrong and there is other ways to deal with enemies.
She also learned the importance of restraint and thinking logically.
She did grow in a way that helped her live life on Earth and be more compatible with Dick.
She thought of herself as an Earthling ,and she lived like one.

[Moonwix]

Right now, it doesn't matter what direction would have benefited Nightwing because it's 2018 and Dick is a mess, his future looks bleak. To me both failed.

A better option I think is, end his current book and start a new different series but a duo one, I still want that world's finest book with Powergirl. I think it can't go wrong.

[Moonwix]

yeah...like the Spider-Man Clone Saga
UGH!

Before that, they were trying to make Spider-Man dark like Batman

that whole webbed himself up in the cocoon after he found out May was sick - Peter Parker no more
that was some creepy stuff
I'd thought Mary Jane would pack her bugs and leave him for good

Yeah that was when i gave up on Spiderman for good.

[Moonwix]

Awful for Marvel but DC didn't do too bad. I'll take what we had then over now in a heartbeat.

I feel like i am already re-living the bad side that era with the current state of nightwing and the Titans.

[byrd156]

I feel like i am already re-living the bad side that era with the current state of nightwing and the Titans.

Jurgens and Grayson's Titans runs are leagues above what we have now. Saying otherwise tells me you haven't reread those issues in awhile.