Richard Grayson's Soulmate

[Celgress]

Several recent threads have made me think. Who do you my fellow posters think should be Nightwing's long-term definitive love interest?

I personally like him with Starfire best, based more on the animated movies and classic Teen Titans series than anything else.

[Onthetrapeze]

Anyone but Barbara. Thank Bruce Timm for making the choice much easier.

[Pohzee]

I went with Barbara.

There's not been enough contemporary stories featuring Dick and Kori for me to get a feel on their relationship. For that reason, I don't see them as soulmates. That being said, it is for that reason that I would like to see more of Dick and Kori together. For a relationship that is seemingly so popular, I think it is relatively undefined. Especially in comparison to his relationship with Barbara Gordon.

[Godlike13]

Adventure!

[Caivu]

I do not understand the rationale behind DickFire whatsoever.

[Oberon]

AAhhh-ha! You said DickFire (done in that bully kid on Simpson's voice)!

But seriously if it were to be Mr. Grayson in his Nightwing persona, than there is only one ~Soul-mate~

(who for some reason has not met him at all since the nu52 started!)

[millernumber1]

AAhhh-ha! You said DickFire (done in that bully kid on Simpson's voice)!

But seriously if it were to be Mr. Grayson in his Nightwing persona, than there is only one ~Soul-mate~

(who for some reason has not met him at all since the nu52 started!)

Um. They had an adventure in the n52/DC You series Starfire. It was cute, but both of them had clearly moved on.

[WontonGirl]

I went with Barbara.

There's not been enough contemporary stories featuring Dick and Kori for me to get a feel on their relationship. For that reason, I don't see them as soulmates. That being said, it is for that reason that I would like to see more of Dick and Kori together. For a relationship that is seemingly so popular, I think it is relatively undefined. Especially in comparison to his relationship with Barbara Gordon.

Probably because there are two different viewpoints. Seems like the DickKori shippers may be more from the Animated world and the DickBarbara shippers may be more from the Comic Book world. At least that's how I am seeing it.

[Marilee]

Yes. in one Convergence mini, Dick got married to Babs. But in another Convergence mini, he was already married to Kory... This was a classic example of DC having it's cake and eating it too. So I'm really not sure we can use the Convergence mini's to signify anything. And I'm sorry, Godlike... But they are both perfectly valid scenarios... During Convergence, none of these set-ups were like what was going on the "main" earth at that time.

Okay, now that I got *that* off my chest, I have to agree with the poster that said this was going to have to be a Betty/Veronica situation. Frankly, while the Bat-books might have some sort of "end-game" in mind. I don't think it will ever be realized. (And frankly, I don't think "end-game" is a concept that should be applied to these properties, as it never seems to ever be reached... I've already seen postings several places about how long, if they actually get married (which many people doubt will happen) Bruce and Selina will last, before there's some big re-set... So "end-game" never seems to be in the cards for most of these characters (except maybe Clark/Lois, Arthur/Mera and Ralph/Sue )

But there have been some things discussed in this thread that should be clarified (mainly because I'm a scientist and feel the need to point out some facts, that I'm sure a number of you will find irrelevant... But I'm a bit anal retentive and feel the need to do this). I'm not trying to call out any one individual here, and at least person has stated they don't know the history, so again, just clarifying.

Dick and Kory did not break up "30+" years ago, it was in 1995 (so 22-23 years ago)... As an old fogie who remembers that whole time span quite well, adding on years that were not there just makes me feel older . In fact, 30 years ago, Nightwing and Starfire were one of the most important couples in DC (important enough, that when there was even the faintest whiff that they were doing a storyline about Kory having to marry someone besides Dick, there was an *organized* snail-mail letter writing campaign to try and stop DC from going through with it). And yes, *snail mail... Where you actually had to go out and buy a stamp and such to get your point across, and couldn't just send off a response via e-mail with little to no thought behind it. And though the initial break-up was in 1995, the relationship was revisited time and again in subsequent years (in the Outsiders series they were both part of, in various versions of the Teen Titans/Titans series, even in Starfire's recent series). And that's on top of the appearances in other media (like the 2003 Teen Titan cartoon, or the more recent DCAU movies... And please, don't anyone bring up Teen Titans Go... I'm not sure we're supposed to take anything in that show seriously... Like really, I know a lot of people apparently like it... But just... No... ).

Also, I've seen people here talk about how Kory had to change to be with Dick... Ummm... no, Kory had to change to be able to live on *Earth*, or at least the part of Earth's society she chose to live in (that being the Western world). Because there are laws against killing, and if she kept the attitude that she had, she would have ended up in jail. That was talked about time and again, and her realization of this was one of her big growth arcs in her storylines over the years in the NTT (and yes, there were times where she would advance in her "evolution" on this topic, and then backtrack, with the whole issue culminating with the storyline in Teen Titans Spotlight On #1 and 2 (I could give you guys a whole lot of issue numbers, but I'm pretty sure you don't really care, so I won't ).

Also, in terms of Dick's importance in the world of comics, I'm off the opinion that moving him back to the bat-books in the mid-90's was actually a big mistake... Because it did confine him to the tone of the Bat-books. I'm sure I'll hear from a number of you about how they had to do this to "save" the character or something, but you might not be aware of a poll that was taken in the mid-80's by the Comic Book Buyers Guide (a publication that was a bit of a bible for comic books back in the day) where again, via snail mail, people wrote in about who their favourite characters were (across all comic books, not just DC) and Nightwing placed in the Top 4 (the others being Batman, Wolverine and Swamp Thing (who had the most critically acclaimed book at the time). And Dick's popularity was not due to his ties to the Bat-books, but due to the Titans. Frankly, given this degree of popularity, Dick should have been the "bat-related" character that broke out of the confines of the bat-books and their "tone" and been able to go across all the different genres and such seen in the DCU. Making Dick go back to the Bat-books, in my opinion, and making him secondary to Bruce and all his drama, just cut the Nightwing character off at the knees. He could have been so much bigger than that.

But I'm actually not here to change anyone mind with regards to the question that the poll is based on. Frankly, I think what each person thinks is based on their own experiences with the characters. My own experience started in the mid-60's with the Batman TV show and the comics (I literally don't remember a time I didn't know who Dick Grayson was...). I followed the character since then, though all the various ups and downs and such (and, again, frankly, always roll my eyes when people bring up the Batman Family comics as the start of the great Dick-n-Babs relationship, as I'm pretty sure that whoever uses those, never actually read the stories, given that yes, Dick had a crush, but Babs usually just teased him about it (as she was a 25+ year old with a Masters degree and was an US senator, and he was a 1st year college student - plus they seem to forget that Dick had a girlfriend though that whole series, Lori Elton, the relationship with, that by issue 17, he was describing as getting serious. And then, after they pulled Dick back into the bat-books in the mid-90's and retconned in the whole "fated" relationship with Babs, they felt they had to put down and degrade the relationships they had had prior (Dick's with Kory, and Babs with the likes of Jason Bard and such) just ticked me off. Of course, they then seemed to show that this "for all time" relationship was, in my opinion, as toxic to the characters as it was supposely good (seeing Babs reject Dick like every other month, and Dick turn into a "kicked puppy" as a result did not seem all that attractive, really. (Of course, my interpretation of their relationship is also biased by the fact that I couldn't stand the direction the bat-books as a whole was going at the time. While I have always liked Denny O'Neil a lot as a writer, I *hated* where he took the books as their chief editor).

Okay... Sorry for the rambling... Again, just getting such off my anal-retentive mind. Because, let's face it, DC is never going to settle this... There's no driving need to settle it, and as both relationships have substantial fan-bases,both of which they want to keep dangling with little bits and pieces showing the relationships, they're not going to want to settle this, as it will tick off the one of them and *potentially* cost them customers. Plus, there's the fact that as seen in this thread, some people want a new relationship... (Though I have to say "no" to Dick and Donna... Simply because it would ruin one of the few classic male-female platonic friendships DC has...)

Again, sorry for the whole ramble...

[Slimybug]

But I'm actually not here to change anyone mind with regards to the question that the poll is based on. Frankly, I think what each person thinks is based on their own experiences with the characters. My own experience started in the mid-60's with the Batman TV show and the comics (I literally don't remember a time I didn't know who Dick Grayson was...). I followed the character since then, though all the various ups and downs and such (and, again, frankly, always roll my eyes when people bring up the Batman Family comics as the start of the great Dick-n-Babs relationship, as I'm pretty sure that whoever uses those, never actually read the stories, given that yes, Dick had a crush, but Babs usually just teased him about it (as she was a 25+ year old with a Masters degree and was an US senator, and he was a 1st year college student - plus they seem to forget that Dick had a girlfriend though that whole series, Lori Elton, the relationship with, that by issue 17, he was describing as getting serious. And then, after they pulled Dick back into the bat-books in the mid-90's and retconned in the whole "fated" relationship with Babs, they felt they had to put down and degrade the relationships they had had prior (Dick's with Kory, and Babs with the likes of Jason Bard and such) just ticked me off. Of course, they then seemed to show that this "for all time" relationship was, in my opinion, as toxic to the characters as it was supposely good (seeing Babs reject Dick like every other month, and Dick turn into a "kicked puppy" as a result did not seem all that attractive, really. (Of course, my interpretation of their relationship is also biased by the fact that I couldn't stand the direction the bat-books as a whole was going at the time. While I have always liked Denny O'Neil a lot as a writer, I *hated* where he took the books as their chief editor).

Dang, you make a great case for Dick/Kori. But you also point out that it's up to where each individual comes in and, of course, whether for good or ill, the writers did indicate, however retroactively and for whatever reasons, that it was potentially a toxic relationship, which is also a case for Babs.

But whatever, like we both said, it's basically a Betty/Veronica thing, and there isn't going to be an endgame. Or if there is, the continuity will be continually reset. So if he has a "one," it's kinda either one of them, depending on the timeline he's in. Maybe someday he'll marry both. He'll marry one, she'll die, and then he'll marry his old flame who he dated before here (it happened to Teddy Roosevelt!)

[Godlike13]

Yes. in one Convergence mini, Dick got married to Babs. But in another Convergence mini, he was already married to Kory... This was a classic example of DC having it's cake and eating it too. So I'm really not sure we can use the Convergence mini's to signify anything. And I'm sorry, Godlike... But they are both perfectly valid scenarios... During Convergence, none of these set-ups were like what was going on the "main" earth at that time.

NTT Convergence wasn't a valid scenario for pre-flashpoint Nightwing in over 20 years. It basically cut off the last 20 years, where Oracle/Nightwing was consistent with pre-flashpoint Nightwing and resembled "main" earth Gotham for the most part. Now yes both are valid out of continuity stories, but the intent of Oracle/Nightwing was to give the more current incarnations of Nighwing and Oracle their happy end.

[TheCape]

Yes. in one Convergence mini, Dick got married to Babs. But in another Convergence mini, he was already married to Kory... This was a classic example of DC having it's cake and eating it too. So I'm really not sure we can use the Convergence mini's to signify anything. And I'm sorry, Godlike... But they are both perfectly valid scenarios... During Convergence, none of these set-ups were like what was going on the "main" earth at that time.

Okay, now that I got *that* off my chest, I have to agree with the poster that said this was going to have to be a Betty/Veronica situation. Frankly, while the Bat-books might have some sort of "end-game" in mind. I don't think it will ever be realized. (And frankly, I don't think "end-game" is a concept that should be applied to these properties, as it never seems to ever be reached... I've already seen postings several places about how long, if they actually get married (which many people doubt will happen) Bruce and Selina will last, before there's some big re-set... So "end-game" never seems to be in the cards for most of these characters (except maybe Clark/Lois, Arthur/Mera and Ralph/Sue )

But there have been some things discussed in this thread that should be clarified (mainly because I'm a scientist and feel the need to point out some facts, that I'm sure a number of you will find irrelevant... But I'm a bit anal retentive and feel the need to do this). I'm not trying to call out any one individual here, and at least person has stated they don't know the history, so again, just clarifying.

Dick and Kory did not break up "30+" years ago, it was in 1995 (so 22-23 years ago)... As an old fogie who remembers that whole time span quite well, adding on years that were not there just makes me feel older . In fact, 30 years ago, Nightwing and Starfire were one of the most important couples in DC (important enough, that when there was even the faintest whiff that they were doing a storyline about Kory having to marry someone besides Dick, there was an *organized* snail-mail letter writing campaign to try and stop DC from going through with it). And yes, *snail mail... Where you actually had to go out and buy a stamp and such to get your point across, and couldn't just send off a response via e-mail with little to no thought behind it. And though the initial break-up was in 1995, the relationship was revisited time and again in subsequent years (in the Outsiders series they were both part of, in various versions of the Teen Titans/Titans series, even in Starfire's recent series). And that's on top of the appearances in other media (like the 2003 Teen Titan cartoon, or the more recent DCAU movies... And please, don't anyone bring up Teen Titans Go... I'm not sure we're supposed to take anything in that show seriously... Like really, I know a lot of people apparently like it... But just... No... ).

Also, I've seen people here talk about how Kory had to change to be with Dick... Ummm... no, Kory had to change to be able to live on *Earth*, or at least the part of Earth's society she chose to live in (that being the Western world). Because there are laws against killing, and if she kept the attitude that she had, she would have ended up in jail. That was talked about time and again, and her realization of this was one of her big growth arcs in her storylines over the years in the NTT (and yes, there were times where she would advance in her "evolution" on this topic, and then backtrack, with the whole issue culminating with the storyline in Teen Titans Spotlight On #1 and 2 (I could give you guys a whole lot of issue numbers, but I'm pretty sure you don't really care, so I won't ).

Also, in terms of Dick's importance in the world of comics, I'm off the opinion that moving him back to the bat-books in the mid-90's was actually a big mistake... Because it did confine him to the tone of the Bat-books. I'm sure I'll hear from a number of you about how they had to do this to "save" the character or something, but you might not be aware of a poll that was taken in the mid-80's by the Comic Book Buyers Guide (a publication that was a bit of a bible for comic books back in the day) where again, via snail mail, people wrote in about who their favourite characters were (across all comic books, not just DC) and Nightwing placed in the Top 4 (the others being Batman, Wolverine and Swamp Thing (who had the most critically acclaimed book at the time). And Dick's popularity was not due to his ties to the Bat-books, but due to the Titans. Frankly, given this degree of popularity, Dick should have been the "bat-related" character that broke out of the confines of the bat-books and their "tone" and been able to go across all the different genres and such seen in the DCU. Making Dick go back to the Bat-books, in my opinion, and making him secondary to Bruce and all his drama, just cut the Nightwing character off at the knees. He could have been so much bigger than that.

But I'm actually not here to change anyone mind with regards to the question that the poll is based on. Frankly, I think what each person thinks is based on their own experiences with the characters. My own experience started in the mid-60's with the Batman TV show and the comics (I literally don't remember a time I didn't know who Dick Grayson was...). I followed the character since then, though all the various ups and downs and such (and, again, frankly, always roll my eyes when people bring up the Batman Family comics as the start of the great Dick-n-Babs relationship, as I'm pretty sure that whoever uses those, never actually read the stories, given that yes, Dick had a crush, but Babs usually just teased him about it (as she was a 25+ year old with a Masters degree and was an US senator, and he was a 1st year college student - plus they seem to forget that Dick had a girlfriend though that whole series, Lori Elton, the relationship with, that by issue 17, he was describing as getting serious. And then, after they pulled Dick back into the bat-books in the mid-90's and retconned in the whole "fated" relationship with Babs, they felt they had to put down and degrade the relationships they had had prior (Dick's with Kory, and Babs with the likes of Jason Bard and such) just ticked me off. Of course, they then seemed to show that this "for all time" relationship was, in my opinion, as toxic to the characters as it was supposely good (seeing Babs reject Dick like every other month, and Dick turn into a "kicked puppy" as a result did not seem all that attractive, really. (Of course, my interpretation of their relationship is also biased by the fact that I couldn't stand the direction the bat-books as a whole was going at the time. While I have always liked Denny O'Neil a lot as a writer, I *hated* where he took the books as their chief editor).

Okay... Sorry for the rambling... Again, just getting such off my anal-retentive mind. Because, let's face it, DC is never going to settle this... There's no driving need to settle it, and as both relationships have substantial fan-bases,both of which they want to keep dangling with little bits and pieces showing the relationships, they're not going to want to settle this, as it will tick off the one of them and *potentially* cost them customers. Plus, there's the fact that as seen in this thread, some people want a new relationship... (Though I have to say "no" to Dick and Donna... Simply because it would ruin one of the few classic male-female platonic friendships DC has...)

Again, sorry for the whole ramble...

That was interesting, personally speaking, i do enjoy both relationships, NTT DickKory with all his angst still manage to bring some feeling to my indiferent teenage mind a couple of years ago (yeah i had been on this for like 5 years only, back issues really help) with all his up and downs it was really sad to see it end, as for DickBabs i had little knowledge beyond Dick having a crush on her and Barbara teasing him about it, but i thougth that Dixon managed to do a pretty good slowburn romance beetween the 2 during his run, bit sadly nobody was able to keep it, also to be fair with the pairing, they didn't start to denigrate the other options until around the 2003-2006 period, when some really odd ( by odd, i mean bad) ichanges were made to Dick's characther, that annual 2 was like the culmination of many bad ideas that pilled up for a while. Funny enougth both relationship were ended by similar reasons in and out of universe (edittorial meddling and failed compromises), is something that i always found really curious, but as you said, this thing don't have an endgame (wich i think that is pretty hurtfull for all comic book characthers, but that's a whole other bag), so DC is just going to tease the fanbase until the world ends or the fanbase get tired, what happen first.

Also Platonic Dick/Donna for the win.

[Badou]

I thought in Convergence Dick and Babs getting married was set in the post Crisis/pre Flashpoint universe, and Dick and Starfire getting married was set in the pre Crisis universe NTT era. That is what I assumed.

But I still think Babs has more utility and Starfire as a character is so limited. Still, Dick is a Bat character first now and Starfire will never be. So that ends the relationship from being anything these days. I mean even when they rebooted the universe for the New 52 they wanted to move Starfire away from Dick and stuck her in that awful relationship with Roy. Neither Dick or Babs have really had a serious love interested from an established hero/character since each other back in the Oracle days. Since then it has just been the two circling each other even through the New 52 reboot with mostly original love interests sprinkled in here or there.

[WontonGirl]

Because, let's face it, DC is never going to settle this... There's no driving need to settle it, and as both relationships have substantial fan-bases,both of which they want to keep dangling with little bits and pieces showing the relationships, they're not going to want to settle this, as it will tick off the one of them and *potentially* cost them customers. Plus, there's the fact that as seen in this thread, some people want a new relationship... (Though I have to say "no" to Dick and Donna... Simply because it would ruin one of the few classic male-female platonic friendships DC has...)

Endgame is when DC closes their doors, LOL!

Clark and Lois, they are probably endgame NOW but pre N52 I would had said the same thing.

Arthur and Mera, shoot, when DC gets off their butts and get these married (again) then we can talk about endgame, LOL

Ralph and Sue, isn't she dead?

Archie eventually married Betty!

[TheCape]

Endgame is when DC closes their doors, LOL!

Clark and Lois, they are probably endgame NOW but pre N52 I would had said the same thing.

Arthur and Mera, shoot, when DC gets off their butts and get these married (again) then we can talk about endgame, LOL

Ralph and Sue, isn't she dead?

Archie eventually married Betty!

Gail Simome brougth back Ralph and Sue in her last Secret Six run.