Richard Grayson's Soulmate

[Oberon]

I so agree.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Considering Barbara became Batgirl, I would think that she had a crush on Batman.

I wouldn't. And the vast majority of stories didn't indicate it was part of her decision to become Batgirl.

(Of course, some writers, sooner or later, might toss in a line that suggests it as a later development. In Batman Beyond she had sex with Bruce and Dick both - albeit not at the same time. But this is OOC for the Barbara Gordon/Batgirl I am most familiar with. I certainly don't think it was part of the original character idea.)

She admired what Batman was doing. She wanted to fight crime like him. So she took on an identity like his - but, as she was female, she decided to design one with an evidently female name. (She didn't have to, of course. She could have picked a non-gendered name like the Black Bat. Also there's the question of why, at her age, she picked Batgirl and not Batwoman. A male character her age probably wouldn't have gone for a "-Boy" style name. But that has to do with DC's habits and the sexism of the time.)

None of this suggests a crush or romantic interest.

The Silver Age Batwoman had a crush on Batman. The current-day Batwoman most certainly does not.

(EDITED TO ADD: I am a continuity fan. And so I have to admit that the panel Marilee posted from Secret Origins #20 suggests that motive for Barbara, even if most other stories didn't support it. But I think it's a grave disservice to the character, and now that we're in a new continuity I hope no one ever uses it again... Certainly I find the assumption "she modeled her superhero identity on Batman, and she is a girl, so she must have had a crush on him" to be a pretty narrow one.)

[Doctor Bifrost]

Love triangles suck when it's two guys and one woman--the guys just mope around. But when it's two women and one man, the women scheme and wage war on each other--it's a lot more fun.

To me this feels a little 1950's, but everybody's entitled to their own tastes.

[oasis1313]

To me this feels a little 1950's, but everybody's entitled to their own tastes.

Better to have two guys sitting around moping?

[Elmo]

Better to have two guys sitting around moping?

Where are you getting this from lmao

post examples please

(from this century)

[MajorHoy]

. . . I am a continuity fan. And so I have to admit that the panel Marilee posted from Secret Origins #20 suggests that motive for Barbara, even if most other stories didn't support it. But I think it's a grave disservice to the character, and now that we're in a new continuity I hope no one ever uses it again... Certainly I find the assumption "she modeled her superhero identity on Batman, and she is a girl, so she must have had a crush on him" to be a pretty narrow one.

I don't know if/how much of that post-CoIE origin story applies anymore. After all, wasn't that where the idea that Barbara was Jim's niece and not his biological daughter with his wife was introduced (or at least played up)? And don't we seem to have gone back to Barbara being the biological daughter of Jim and his first (and only) wife?

(Or has that no-good King guy gone and reintroduced the divorce from the first wife / possible sex between Gordon and his sister-in-law / affair (when still married) and eventual later marriage to Sarah Essen mess?)

[Doctor Bifrost]

Better to have two guys sitting around moping?

Let me be a little clearer then: I do not agree that "...[W]hen it's two guys and one woman--the guys just mope around. But when it's two women and one man, the women scheme and wage war on each other." I think that's a collection of sexist stereotypes. Not all men are the same. Not all women are the same. Sometimes two men interested in the same woman will mope, sometimes they'll fight to the death. Sometimes two women interested in the same man will avoid each other, or leave it to him to decide, or "scheme and wage war on each other."

The genders of the people involved do not dictate their response to the situation. Their personalities do. This is true in comic books, and it's true in The So-Called Real World™.

Sometimes a man and a woman will be interested in the same guy, and when they realize he's sleeping with both of them behind their backs, they will dump him and become best friends. Or the three of them will form a polyamorous triad. There are so many possibilities, and declaring "two men will do THIS, but two women will do THIS OTHER THING" is just stereotyping, which is boring.

It's 2018, not 1955. Which is not to imply that, even in 1955, all women reacted one specific way, and all men reacted a different specific way. It's just that that's the way they were depicted in popular culture. (Lois vs Lana! "All's fair in love and war, and this is war!") But there's no reason to stick to those narrow stereotypes now.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I don't know if/how much of that post-CoIE origin story applies anymore. After all, wasn't that where the idea that Barbara was Jim's niece and not his biological daughter with his wife was introduced (or at least played up)? And don't we seem to have gone back to Barbara being the biological daughter of Jim and his first (and only) wife?

(Or has that no-good King guy gone and reintroduced the divorce from the first wife / possible sex between Gordon and his sister-in-law / affair (when still married) and eventual later marriage to Sarah Essen mess?)

Oh, I agree we're in a different continuity now, and the post-CoIE conditions only apply if TPTB decide they want them to. I was just admitting that my full-throated rejection of "Barbara became Batgirl because she had a crush on Batman" was contradicted by an in-continuity Batgirl origin story post-CoIE. I had entirely forgotten that detail.

And I hope it will never be reintroduced in the current or subsequent continuities, because I think it trivializes Barbara Gordon and her motivations. But that's just me.

As for Jim Gordon and his marital and sexual history - who could possibly know at this point? DC continuity is an absolute mess, and in the process of transition. Because it's in transition (Rebirth and Rebirth-like stories, Doomsday Clock), they have a chance to clean it up. Experience suggests they won't, but one can still hope...

[Starrius]

As I stated previously, Barbara said in Batman Family #10 that she was 25 while Dick was "still a teenager."

I had not heard of her comparing him to Batman in her head, or Catwoman getting ticked at her "moving on her man." If you haven't figured this out about me yet, I'm going to want to know those specific issues.

Detective Comics #369 - The end of the issue shows Selina reading the paper about the new Bat-Girl.



She says "She has her nerve trying to cut herself in on my man. I've known Batman a lot longer than that Jill-come-lately. If he belongs to anybody, he belongs to Catwoman." In her mind, Batman is her boyfriend. She obviously is in love with Batman and is very possessive of him.



Batman #197 - Selina/Catwoman puts on a green costume for the first time. She competes with Batgirl for Batman's love by being a crimefighter too, making Batgirl look bad. She wants Batman to marry her and she even sets a trap for him and wants to get her to marry him. Damn...........ummm....Catwoman didn't seem like a femme fetale. She's more like fatal attraction (if I can't have Batman....nobody can), but she's not into killing. It's that her love for Batman makes her act irrationally and erratically. Batman says that Catwoman loves her. Robin responded by saying that everybody knew that except him.

Batgirl told Catwoman that she wasn't even romantically interested in Batman. Catwoman was jealous and competed with Batgirl for nothing.



I admit being wrong about my assumption of Barbara having a crush on Batman based on her becoming Batgirl. She definitely admired him though.
I should have worded better.

[Slimybug]

And I hope it will never be reintroduced in the current or subsequent continuities, because I think it trivializes Barbara Gordon and her motivations. But that's just me.

Who's to say it's part of her motivation? It just says she had a bit of a crush. Doesn't even say how intrusive it was in her life. It was probably never a big deal. I mean, come on, if you were a 25-year-old guy fighting crime with Wonder Woman, you'd have a bit of a crush too.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Who's to say it's part of her motivation? It just says she had a bit of a crush. Doesn't even say how intrusive it was in her life. It was probably never a big deal.

That would be fine by me.

I mean, come on, if you were a 25-year-old guy fighting crime with Wonder Woman, you'd have a bit of a crush too.

Actually, I wouldn't.

Allow me to introduce you to my husband.

[Rac7d*]

This thread has been poppin

[Slimybug]

It's a fun thread.

[oasis1313]

Let me be a little clearer then: I do not agree that "...[W]hen it's two guys and one woman--the guys just mope around. But when it's two women and one man, the women scheme and wage war on each other." I think that's a collection of sexist stereotypes. Not all men are the same. Not all women are the same. Sometimes two men interested in the same woman will mope, sometimes they'll fight to the death. Sometimes two women interested in the same man will avoid each other, or leave it to him to decide, or "scheme and wage war on each other."

The genders of the people involved do not dictate their response to the situation. Their personalities do. This is true in comic books, and it's true in The So-Called Real World™.

Sometimes a man and a woman will be interested in the same guy, and when they realize he's sleeping with both of them behind their backs, they will dump him and become best friends. Or the three of them will form a polyamorous triad. There are so many possibilities, and declaring "two men will do THIS, but two women will do THIS OTHER THING" is just stereotyping, which is boring.

It's 2018, not 1955. Which is not to imply that, even in 1955, all women reacted one specific way, and all men reacted a different specific way. It's just that that's the way they were depicted in popular culture. (Lois vs Lana! "All's fair in love and war, and this is war!") But there's no reason to stick to those narrow stereotypes now.

Sterotyping is boring, but political correctness isn't. Okay. Thanks for the education.

[Oberon]

Society, societal norms "create" and/or enforce or try to gender norms, gender roles, etc. Many years ago I read a short paper by a grand-niece of Freud; either Sophia or Anna, about the so-called Societal Creation of Gender Roles, which was fairly illuminating.

It is, pretty much as you so, Doc and as far as comparing now to '55 (the year I was born, goodness sake!), well so-called society has always had a secret under-current or secret society itself.

I imagine as we allow ourselves to be enslaved and conformed to our technology the opportunities or very existence may be in the balance. But that's a different topic.
It's probably not likely that comics are ready or in fact the place to have poly life styles with many possibilities as you say, but it really is fun to speculate, as long as we don't go for the pandering.
For the Bat family, I think this mostly means fairly traditional kind of relationships, with the eye towards a possible flirtation with a "triangle".

I'm mostly way on the edge of these characters - I of course am a big Batwoman/Kate Kane fan - but to me Nightwing may need someone else other than the seeming and odd much younger Barbara. This is actually too bad, because over many years I am aware that they have been portrayed as having a serious relationship, and I am aware of Dick's romance with Starfire, many years ago.
So I admit I don't really know that he can go back to Kory, the same way, etc. I think there is more of a need to partner with someone in the Bat family. I'm just not sure it's Barbara either.
So good luck to both of them.