NFL 2018 OFF-Season thread

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Joe Montana is considered the GOAT WR. He had Montana (considered the GOAT until Brady) and Steve Young (considered to have one of the best primes of all time) throwing to him during his prime and most productive portion of his career. The person throwing shouldnt matter.

Here’s just a fact, on game per game basis, Gronk dominates Gonzalez. When it comes to blocking, which is a prime function of being a TE, Gronk is a high level blocker, Gonzalez really wasn’t. Gronk is pound for better. Gonzalez has longevity records. He’s probably the best who lasted the longest. As a pure player Gronk is better. Gronk might be the best skill player in the league during his era. Gonzalez wasn’t. He was a generational TE, but he didn’t have an argument for best skill player in the league during his era.

If you took every coach and said for one game you can pick Gronk or Gonzalez they would all pick Gronk. He does more, he’s more dominant, he’s a freak athlete, he makes the QB’s job easier because he has a larger catch radius, he can help on the line, he’s a mismatch for most defenses.

Gonzalez has longevity. That’s it. If you want to play the guessing game and go well this guy threw to this guy.... lots of all time great WR’s had crap.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I think he'll need to at least get over 700-800 career receptions and 10,000 career yards to do it. The only question is can he stay healthy and not retire early ?



As you missed , Gronk is putting up those "monster" numbers your quoting with Tom Brady. Give Gronk another QB does he do this ? DOUBTFUL.



He's been a good part of the offense but as we saw Belichick put him up on the trading block and was gonna move on once retirement and health has became an issue. As many have posted Gronk is a solid TE for Brady and the system but he's not Tony Gonzalez. That guy powered the Chiefs himself. He carried an entire team on his back for a number of seasons with less quality QB's. Gronk hasn't done that ...he has the greatest QB throwing to him and the system.

It spoke volumes that when Belichick put a 1st round price tag on a trade for him that no one answered for that this season.

Belichick never put him on the trading block. That was an unsubstantiated rumor. Also he was talking about retiring until a week ago. Nobody is trading for Gronk or Gonzalez if they are talking about retiring. That’s not indicative of anything even if it were true that we was on the block.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Joe Montana is considered the GOAT WR. He had Montana (considered the GOAT until Brady) and Steve Young (considered to have one of the best primes of all time) throwing to him during his prime and most productive portion of his career. The person throwing shouldnt matter.

It does here when your quoting all this Jim Brown nonsense about Gronk and his numbers. He has a Hall of Fame QB , running a high octane offense throwing to him. Put him in Kansas City does he do this in 2000's with Trent Green and those QB's ? Its friggen doubtful. Does he stay healthy to do it ?

Here’s just a fact, on game per game basis, Gronk dominates Gonzalez. When it comes to blocking, which is a prime function of being a TE, Gronk is a high level blocker, Gonzalez really wasn’t. Gronk is pound for better. Gonzalez has longevity records. He’s probably the best who lasted the longest. As a pure player Gronk is better. Gronk might be the best skill player in the league during his era. Gonzalez wasn’t. He was a generational TE, but he didn’t have an argument for best skill player in the league during his era.

So now the measuring table has went to blocking . Gronk is a good blocker but no one is racing to proclaim greatness since he can block. Since Witten was a better blocker than Gonzalez and Gronk combined. Its not about longevity , its about which TE did the most and given that Gronk has the greatest QB throwing him the ball and can put up eye popping numbers in a limited span , it doesn't say Gronk could do what Gonzalez did with lesser QB's and being the vocal point of the team for a few seasons.

Blocking is a great TE skill sure . But since ya wanna go down that street here is how he fares to Witten and Gonzalez...

Witten had blocked for 5 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons. Dallas also had years where 2 RB's combined for over 1,500+ yards a number of seasons.
Gonzalez had blocked for 6 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons in Kansas City and Atlanta.
Gronk has blocked for 3 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons.

If that is your measuring stick maybe he eclipses Witten and Gonzalez there some day but well...thus far beyond a couple big seasons with Tom throwing him the ball...it remains to be seen if he will be the greatest.

If you took every coach and said for one game you can pick Gronk or Gonzalez they would all pick Gronk. He does more, he’s more dominant, he’s a freak athlete, he makes the QB’s job easier because he has a larger catch radius, he can help on the line, he’s a mismatch for most defenses.

I'm sure if you asked any coach who'd they want in their primes they'd take Tony Gonzalez since he can stretch a damn field down the middle , he dominated games himself , blocked for RB's more consistent and was healthier. But hey go poll some coaches and 9 outta 10 take the in his prime Gonzalez. Go poll them...your gonna be let down.

Gonzalez has longevity. That’s it. If you want to play the guessing game and go well this guy threw to this guy.... lots of all time great WR’s had crap.

Gonzalez was healthier , did more on less teams and QB's. All you have to hang your hat on is a big season or two that Gronk had. He hasn't been healthy , your insistence on blocking has fallen apart. He's not the greatest TE. No one here is buying what you sold.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Belichick never put him on the trading block. That was an unsubstantiated rumor. Also he was talking about retiring until a week ago. Nobody is trading for Gronk or Gonzalez if they are talking about retiring. That’s not indicative of anything even if it were true that we was on the block.

Gonzalez talked about retiring after the 2008 season because he was mentally tired and wanted to play for a winner. He later said he'd come back but the Chiefs did right by him and traded him for a 2nd round pick. There was talk Belichick was tired of Gronk's non committed attitude towards the season and likely used this to push his return. In the end though who wants to trade for a banged up TE who beyond 1 or 2 big seasons , would have to start over and not have Tom Brady ?

[DungeonmasterJim]

Between injuries and his discussion of retirement I can't see Gronk catching Gonzalez. He doesn't seem to have that dedication that Tony pushed himself with daily. Tony Gonzalez was the Jerry Rice of TE's it seems. He pushed himself hard and yeah he could have played 2-3 more seasons. But Tony felt once his drive was gone , no half assing it out there and he walked away.

One thing I always wonder about good/great players is if they hang around longer over taking retirement because they haven't won a Super Bowl.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

One thing I always wonder about good/great players is if they hang around longer over taking retirement because they haven't won a Super Bowl.

Its a big question on a lot of players. Gonzalez himself stuck around the 2013 season because he was gonna retire after 2012. But he wanted that ring so bad and decided to play on for the Falcons one more year. It did hurt him how they finished and talk was with KC doing well that year , would the team possibly trade him back to get that ring or cut him so he could sign. But I remember Gonzalez was a class act and said NO. That he was playing for the Falcons the entire way as he said he would.

Even a 37 year old Tony Gonzalez was a guy catching near 800-900 yards a season. The guy was that damn good and that is at the end of his career.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

NFL News


- Seattle has cut Cliff Avril (DE) after he failed a physical. Last season Avril hurt his neck in a game and Pete Carroll claimed the injury was one where Avril may have to retire. The Seahawks got 5 solid seasons from Avril and he helped get them to a 2015 Super Bowl. Avril has claimed he plans to play in 2018.


- All-Pro LB Derrick Johnson has signed with the Oakland Raiders. Johnson was cut by Kansas City due to age and injury issues. The all-pro will join the Raiders defense and try to make another comeback.


- The Carolina Panthers defensive backs coach resigned today due to allegations of misconduct. Curtis Fuller had been a coach with the Panthers since 2013 and resigned today. This is kinda insane as months ago owner Jerry Richardson has an NFL investigation of him going on about work place misconduct. Richardson has put the Panthers up for sale.


- The Miami Dolphins decided to go QB. Its just not the QB folks expected. The Dolphins picked up Bryce Petty off waivers after he was cut by the NY Jets. Petty will compete for the 3rd string QB job with 3rd stringer David Fales.


- A Chiefs/Browns trade was aborted today when the two teams were gonna trade players. The Chiefs were gonna send LB Dadi Nicolas to the Browns for TE Randall Telfer . Instead both teams seemed to decide to cut both players instead.


- Ben Rothlisberger unleashed on a Pittsburgh show about the drafting of Mason Rudolph in the 3rd round. Claiming he doesn't see how that helps the team right now considering he plans to play 3-5 more seasons. Also the fact he feels the QB room has Landry Jones behind him and a prospect they seemed to be developing in Joshua Dobbs.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

- Ben Rothlisberger unleashed on a Pittsburgh show about the drafting of Mason Rudolph in the 3rd round. Claiming he doesn't see how that helps the team right now considering he plans to play 3-5 more seasons. Also the fact he feels the QB room has Landry Jones behind him and a prospect they seemed to be developing in Joshua Dobbs.

Now, does THAT sound like someone willing to be a mentor to a rookie QB?

[HowitzerJoe]

You people arguing are so petty. And tiny.

[ChibaMariners]

Lol Roethlisberger has a lot of nerve. Count your chickens that you can even play after like 3 separate sexual assault accusations with relatively little noise.

[Gray Lensman]

Lol Roethlisberger has a lot of nerve. Count your chickens that you can even play after like 3 separate sexual assault accusations with relatively little noise.

Plans can change based on injury and aging. As much as I like Brady myself, I think the team would be best served by keeping him on a series of one year contracts with extension options - one year each. He should be the starter as long as he can keep the job (be better than anyone else on the roster) but both he and the team need to accept that his end could come at any time, maybe before he, or anyone else not rooting for some other team is ready for it.

[Jackmando7]

Now, does THAT sound like someone willing to be a mentor to a rookie QB?

That sounds like a man who wants to keep his job.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

It does here when your quoting all this Jim Brown nonsense about Gronk and his numbers. He has a Hall of Fame QB , running a high octane offense throwing to him. Put him in Kansas City does he do this in 2000's with Trent Green and those QB's ? Its friggen doubtful. Does he stay healthy to do it ?

Jim Brown to Gronk is a great comparispon. For one Jim Brown didn't have a long career. Gronk and Brown both played roughly the same amount time. Brown played 9 seasons and 118 games. Gronk played 8 seasons and 108 games.

Brown is largely considered the GOAT RB not because he has all these bulk records based on longevity (Emmitt Smith/Tony Gonzalez), but because he was clearly more dominant than anybody ele on a per game basis. When you run the numbers Gronk is easily the best TE on per a game basis. They also looked more physically dominant at their position compared to their peers than anybody else. They basically have the exact same argument. It's suspect for you to dismiss it out of hand just because.

So now the measuring table has went to blocking . Gronk is a good blocker but no one is racing to proclaim greatness since he can block. Since Witten was a better blocker than Gonzalez and Gronk combined. Its not about longevity , its about which TE did the most and given that Gronk has the greatest QB throwing him the ball and can put up eye popping numbers in a limited span , it doesn't say Gronk could do what Gonzalez did with lesser QB's and being the vocal point of the team for a few seasons.

No you don't have a real argument on a per game basis. So your argument comes down to 2 things.

1. Tom Brady is a better QB than any of the other QB's these TE had.
2. Longevity bulk stats.

The first one is easily disputed. Jerry Rice, greatest WR of all time, had the guy who was considered the GOAT who already won SB's without him, for the prime of his career, then had a guy in Steve Young who many consider to have the greatest peak at QB of all time. Do you want to dispute Jerry Rice's greatness? Do you want to dispute Jim Brown because Paul Brown who was the greatest coach of his generation was the coach for most of his career. It's not a real argument. Plenty of people say well Brady's not the GOAT because of Belichick and plenty of people say the opposite. It's just an attempt to diminish accolades.

Here's a nice little article about how Brady's stats go down without Gronk. Check it out. He does as much for Brady as he does for him.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/pat...ent-to-harvard

Gonzalez didn't play with great QB's most of his career. Guess what? Plenty of all time great pass catchers didn't play with great QB's.

Game to game Gronk does more.

Receptions
Gronk: 4.6 per game
Gonzalez: 4.9 per game
Witten: 4.8

TD's
Gronk: .74 per game
Gonzalez .41 per game
Witten: .28 per game

Yards
Gronk: 70.3 per game
Gonzalez: 56.0 per game
Witten: 52.2 per game

Ave
Gronk: 15.1
Gonzalez: 11.4
Witten: 10.8

So in summation, Gronk SEVERELY DOMINATES ON PER GAME basis in yards, ave, and touchdowns where despite playing significantly less he already holds the TE record. In fact Gronk actually gets slightly less reception.... WHICH MEANS HE ACCCOMPLISHES THAT MUCH MORE WHEN HE GRABS THE BALL

Blocking is a great TE skill sure . But since ya wanna go down that street here is how he fares to Witten and Gonzalez...

No it's not a great skill, it's an integral skill. It's what makes a TE not a WR. And Gronk is better. If you want to diminish it then compare Gonzo to WR's and I promise you he won't look impressive.

Witten had blocked for 5 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons. Dallas also had years where 2 RB's combined for over 1,500+ yards a number of seasons.
Gonzalez had blocked for 6 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons in Kansas City and Atlanta.
Gronk has blocked for 3 , 1,000+ yard running backs in his seasons.

Patriots have traditionally had RB by committee. That's pretty much all I really need to say here. Witten has had some of the top ranked lines in the NFL specifically with Murray and Elliot running. Gonzo was barely asked to block on many integral plays. Gronk is often asked to add protection on the line because he is a strong blocker. Patriots have modified Gronk's roles in games specifically to add to the offensive line. You can't say that about Gonzo or Witten.

If that is your measuring stick maybe he eclipses Witten and Gonzalez there some day but well...thus far beyond a couple big seasons with Tom throwing him the ball...it remains to be seen if he will be the greatest.

Aside from longevity he already blasts past them in blocking and production in pass catching

I'm sure if you asked any coach who'd they want in their primes they'd take Tony Gonzalez since he can stretch a damn field down the middle , he dominated games himself , blocked for RB's more consistent and was healthier. But hey go poll some coaches and 9 outta 10 take the in his prime Gonzalez. Go poll them...your gonna be let down.

There's teams that literally drafted last year just to get someone to stop Gronkowski. NOBODY every did that for Gonzalez. Gronk is considered arguably the best skill player right now in the league. Nobody thought Witten or Gonzo was better than the best RB and WR of their day. Nobody. Teams can double Gonzo. Nobody has found out how to stop Gronk. He gives DC's nightmares. He's considered far more of an x factor on offense. Pretty easily.

Gonzalez was healthier , did more on less teams and QB's. All you have to hang your hat on is a big season or two that Gronk had. He hasn't been healthy , your insistence on blocking has fallen apart. He's not the greatest TE. No one here is buying what you sold.

No that's not even close to my argument. When you equalize to not account for longevity Gronk pretty much wins in every category. By alot. Period. Longevity and Brady are your only arguments for Gonzo. I get that your a Chiefs fans, but Gronk is better on a day by day basis.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Gonzalez talked about retiring after the 2008 season because he was mentally tired and wanted to play for a winner. He later said he'd come back but the Chiefs did right by him and traded him for a 2nd round pick. There was talk Belichick was tired of Gronk's non committed attitude towards the season and likely used this to push his return. In the end though who wants to trade for a banged up TE who beyond 1 or 2 big seasons , would have to start over and not have Tom Brady ?

You do realize your argument here is basically based around an unsubstantiated rumor right?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Jim Brown to Gronk is a great comparispon. For one Jim Brown didn't have a long career. Gronk and Brown both played roughly the same amount time. Brown played 9 seasons and 118 games. Gronk played 8 seasons and 108 games.

Brown is largely considered the GOAT RB not because he has all these bulk records based on longevity (Emmitt Smith/Tony Gonzalez), but because he was clearly more dominant than anybody ele on a per game basis. When you run the numbers Gronk is easily the best TE on per a game basis. They also looked more physically dominant at their position compared to their peers than anybody else. They basically have the exact same argument. It's suspect for you to dismiss it out of hand just because.

Lets examine this borderline silly comparison your making more. Ok Jim Brown played 118 games. He played in seasons where 12 and 14 games was a regular season. In fact Brown was so dominant and clearly the Browns #1 weapon. He put up MONSTER SEASONS on a regular basis. Brown rushed for over 1,863 yards in 14 games. One season he rushed for 1,500+ yards in a 12 game season. Jim Brown had only 1 season where he didn't get 1,000 yards. But for 8 of his 9 seasons he was putting up MONSTER NUMBERS.

Rob Gronkowski has had only 1 MONSTER season in his 8 seasons and it was his 2nd year when he last started 16 games before injuries have taken its toll. There he had over 1,300+ yards receiving and 17 TD's. Since then Gronk has became more or less averaging 1,100 yards receiving a season beyond his injured years of 2012,2013 and 2016.

Now how in the hell is he Jim Brown like ? He ha 1 HUGE season but he's putting up standard Tony Gonzalez production numbers since . But he's not been healthy like Gonzalez was able to stay. Which is what made Tony so much better. Because Tony played a hard position and in 17 seasons , only missed 2 games.

No you don't have a real argument on a per game basis. So your argument comes down to 2 things.

1. Tom Brady is a better QB than any of the other QB's these TE had.
2. Longevity bulk stats.

Being not injured also helps. But hey having Tom Brady helped Gronk. No one is rushing to deny this if ya noticed. Because they can tell you , having Tom Brady be your QB in your career is better than having Elvis Grbac or Damon Huard.

The first one is easily disputed. Jerry Rice, greatest WR of all time, had the guy who was considered the GOAT who already won SB's without him, for the prime of his career, then had a guy in Steve Young who many consider to have the greatest peak at QB of all time. Do you want to dispute Jerry Rice's greatness? Do you want to dispute Jim Brown because Paul Brown who was the greatest coach of his generation was the coach for most of his career. It's not a real argument. Plenty of people say well Brady's not the GOAT because of Belichick and plenty of people say the opposite. It's just an attempt to diminish accolades.

Since your moving to this now , no one said Jim Brown isn't GOAT RB in history. Your comparison of Gronkowski to Brown is more or less a joke.

Here's a nice little article about how Brady's stats go down without Gronk. Check it out. He does as much for Brady as he does for him.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/12/pat...ent-to-harvard

Gonzalez didn't play with great QB's most of his career. Guess what? Plenty of all time great pass catchers didn't play with great QB's.

If ya notice Brady didn't need Gronkowski for years and has missed a ton of games....and yet Brady still plays solid and wins. Honestly your over inflating Gronk's importance to a level where now he's supposedly carrying Tom Brady and is like Jim Brown. Dude no one is buying this.

Game to game Gronk does more.

So in summation, Gronk SEVERELY DOMINATES ON PER GAME basis in yards, ave, and touchdowns where despite playing significantly less he already holds the TE record. In fact Gronk actually gets slightly less reception.... WHICH MEANS HE ACCCOMPLISHES THAT MUCH MORE WHEN HE GRABS THE BALL

Again beyond one monster season in a limited span with Tom Brady , it doesn't mean what your thinking. Keep telling yourself he's Jim Brown I guess.

No it's not a great skill, it's an integral skill. It's what makes a TE not a WR. And Gronk is better. If you want to diminish it then compare Gonzo to WR's and I promise you he won't look impressive.



Patriots have traditionally had RB by committee. That's pretty much all I really need to say here. Witten has had some of the top ranked lines in the NFL specifically with Murray and Elliot running. Gonzo was barely asked to block on many integral plays. Gronk is often asked to add protection on the line because he is a strong blocker. Patriots have modified Gronk's roles in games specifically to add to the offensive line. You can't say that about Gonzo or Witten.

Do you really want MRP to discuss the offensive lines Dallas had before the 2010's and before they over hauled that ? Really ? Again trying to over inflate Gronk has exposed his injuries , his drop in numbers beyond his 1 monster season and how he's not blocked for many 1,000+ yard RB's. And Gonzalez early in his career as did Witten blocked for RB by committee as well. I didn't count them since we looked at 1,000 yard RB's.

There's teams that literally drafted last year just to get someone to stop Gronkowski. NOBODY every did that for Gonzalez. Gronk is considered arguably the best skill player right now in the league. Nobody thought Witten or Gonzo was better than the best RB and WR of their day. Nobody. Teams can double Gonzo. Nobody has found out how to stop Gronk. He gives DC's nightmares. He's considered far more of an x factor on offense. Pretty easily.

Yeah before Gronk came along no TE ever caught 1,000 yards. Before Gronk came along no WR every scared defenses. I think Gronk created TE in the NFL books. Dude are you legit serious here ? Because I will give you a history lesson. Tony Gonzalez was the guy who legit changed the TE position. He legit was someone teams game planned to stop and double/triple coverage at times. He'd split out at WR and run WR routes. Teams literally hated Gonzalez because as one DB said he's too big for us to handle and too fast for a LB. He was MIS-MATCH CENTRAL for years.

No that's not even close to my argument. When you equalize to not account for longevity Gronk pretty much wins in every category. By alot. Period. Longevity and Brady are your only arguments for Gonzo. I get that your a Chiefs fans, but Gronk is better on a day by day basis.

I get you love Gronk and believe he's the greatest , but the guy who transformed the position and did what you see Gronk doing while healthy is #88 himself. Sorry end of discussion if you look there in the video a lot of what we see now Gronk run is what Tony Gonzalez did and more.