Why doesn’t DC have any successful minority superheroes?

[krazijoe]

Maybe jumping to the last page of the discussion is causing me to miss the context, but Wally replaced Barry in The Flash after Barry died in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Sandy Hausler

Yeah, we were discussing the African American Wally.

[HereNThere]

Probably a mix of favoritism, apathy, and, if the characters are unfortunate enough, convenience. DC has clearly shown preferences for certain minority characters and those are the ones they want to succeed. Everyone else? They don't care about them. At least, not in the way some of us would prefer them to care about them. It seems, to DC, as long as they are around and get some attention, that's good enough.

For those lucky enough to get solos, DC just plops them out there and expects people to buy them, when DC themselves don't put much backing for them. DC are very selective listeners when it comes to what fans want out of these characters. Heaven forbid it doesn't align with their thoughts in the first place. I mean, look at Cyborg. DC's most prominent black character and they can't even be bothered to have the editors keep his appearance, abilities, or progression consistent across the books, even books that take place within the same event.

Let's look at The New Age of Heroes. They seem to only be around because, instead of fixing the characters people had grievances with (Wally vs. New52 Wally for example), they decide to listen to the other side who want heroes done the "right way", i.e. new heroes who can be safely ignored and who are no threat to the DC "main" heroes spotlight. Ironically, they went all out for this. Superstar writers, artists, promotion, actually allowing these characters to pal around in the greater universe, the whole shebang...Do they not see how frustrating that is? These are the things we've been asking for for years for the minority characters DC already had, but because they barely put the effort in for them and they didn't quite catch on quickly, they just moved to the next thing instead of further nurturing them and do them for these characters. They listened, but only applied the critiques to characters they care more about. Don't get me wrong, I hope The New Age of Heroes catches on, but I'm afraid it'll come at the cost of the other minority heroes that came before. It's actually something I feared with this line of comics was first announced.

[Rac7d*]

Yeah, we were discussing the African American Wally.

is bart coming back meaning too many flashes in one universe

[Rac7d*]

He looks as human as the Metal Men and Red Tornado. What is that worth?

It's curious how your description of him as disabled or sub-human is synonymous with the experience many black men are already subject to. Can you see how that is problematic? That's not cool. We should be raving about him the same way we have about T'Challa being a wish fulfilment.

That's a poor theme to build a comic about. That's why the X-Men wasn't a team of Black heroes. It'd be just another day in the park. They were going to be hated anyway, so what's the big deal?

With Cyborg being the only showcased black hero thus far, he should be something black people are proud of in the midst of these "great whites". That's the point. In a world of amazing people, the single black hero you show people is one who doubts his own being. His own humanity. His own worth. And then is made to look inferior by design.

My concern is not about a bunch of little white children being happy with their boisterous, robot man with a partial bit of black skin. I care more about little black children having a character that is something they can continue being proud of and is treated on the same level as the other big name characters that all just so happen be white.

It's no different then if I were to create a Japanese hero. My first concern is making him authentic and respectable to the Japanese readers as opposed to the black readers. Especially if the Japanese readership is the one that's already marginalized.

Like it or not, Cyborg is currently in a position where he represents black people. If the best representation for a black character you have in your books is someone who's behind the 8-ball, then you're sending a poor message.

I feel the same way, Dc added him the JL linup, because in their eyes he seem to be popular, but he was always the least popular titan, growing up watching the show it just made me upset that he was always the first to be knocked down ripped apart, because being a robot made him expendable. He was the worst black representive. Static, aqualad, John stewart and vixen are much better alternatives

[Dragonick]

I feel the same way, Dc added him the JL linup, because in their eyes he seem to be popular, but he was always the least popular titan, growing up watching the show it just made me upset that he was always the first to be knocked down ripped apart, because being a robot made him expendable. He was the worst black representive. Static, aqualad, John stewart and vixen are much better alternatives

Didn't he also get the least character focused episodes on the show? I know he did the worst in terms of a love interest and that bothered me too.

[Aahz]

The funny thing is that you would expect Bronze Tiger to be used more considering he literally beat Batman. I wouldn't put it past DC current writers to retcon that fight anytime soon.

Fighting Power isn'T everything, Shiva and Richard Dragon are also not really used more then him.

[Anthony Shaw]

One problem with that is few of those people looked beyond the show to take interest in the comics. And this was back when DC actually did decide to promote John Stewart in a more prominent fashion due to his role in the cartoon. In the early 2000s when Hal was still "dead" and despite that Kyle was technically still the main GL in the comics, John was made the public face of the GL franchise. DC brought him back as GL in the comics again and put him in the Justice League all because of that show, he didn't have Hal "holding him back" then, yet it didn't exactly set the DC world on fire. I loved the DCAU and John's role in JL/JLU but that show hardly defines the GL mythos or its characters. DC obviously could've done much more with John than they ended up doing, but I think it goes beyond the fact that they brought Hal back, I believe DC never really had the intention of pushing John to the moon the way they did with Hal or even with Kyle when he took over in the 90s. Even if Hal was never brought back, they would've probably ended up relaunching the Kyle book and John would've had more or less the same role that he ended up having. Judging by their history, John Stewart never seemed to be a character that DC ever thought very highly of.

It's a bit painful, but this post is cold, honest truth.

[leo619]

I'd be very interested in seeing what the breakdown was for those that bought Captain America: Sam Wilson. What were the numbers for those who bought it because Sam was Captain America vs those that were buying it because it was a "Captain America" title (or one in which there was a non-Hydra version of the character anyway)? Clearly all those people that were reading about Sam when he was Captain America aren't reading Falcon now judging from the extremely low sales figures for it compared to his Captain America numbers. Where did all those readers go?

So this is the second series of Captain America, Sam Wilson, which came around the same time that Captain America White appeared, a mini series dedicated to classic steve rodgers.

Captain America Sam Wilson 1 $3.99 Marvel 62,535

Captain America Sam Wilson 2 $3.99 Marvel 40,224

Captain America Sam Wilson 3 $3.99 Marvel 33,984

Captain America Sam Wilson 4 $3.99 Marvel 29,512


Comparison to Falcon:

Falcon 1 $3.99 Marvel 54,281

Falcon 2 $3.99 Marvel 16,848

Falcon 3 $3.99 Marvel 14,475

Falcon 4 $3.99 Marvel 11,296


The numbers speak for themselves. And this is with Falcon, who among the legacy characters (and arguably biggest hype) had among the lowest sales within the legacy crew. This also isn't including Captain America first series that sold way better than his second run. Even with that, he still sold leagues better under his captain america mantle vs his falcon mantle. And that's why I keep saying Marvel needs to actually listen to those who support these books, not those that pretend to support these books but they only want them out of the mantle so their white characters can hog all the spotlights.

As to where all the Falcon readers went? Most likely left the series. I explained it like this in another thread, Falcon is to Colin Kaepernick as Captain America is to President Obama. Colin Kapernick is important, don't get me wrong. But we already have multiple heroes that fits that void, primarily Luke Cage. Having Sam Wilson be Captain America was a completely new position that never was presented before (similar to president obama). So with Falcon going back to his older ways, many of the new readers who joined his initial run bounce.

And that's why I keep trying to tell marvel to STOP listening to classic readers when it comes to legacy heroes. They don't care about the new heroes, it's the new readers that allowed these books to be successful. If you want to maintain the momentum that you built from ANAD, make sure the legacy characters is being addressed by the new readers that support them and not the classic readers that only wants to kick them to the curve.

[leo619]

Maybe jumping to the last page of the discussion is causing me to miss the context, but Wally replaced Barry in The Flash after Barry died in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Sandy Hausler

Correction, Original Wally replaced Barry during Infinite Earths. We're referring to New Wally West, who never took place in the legacy replacement window like his original counterpart did, and is part of the reason why he's not receiving the same level of success as his marvel counterparts do.

[Trey Strain]

How many successful comics of any sort does DC have?

BATMAN

DETECTIVE COMICS

FLASH

SUPERMAN

JUSTICE LEAGUE

ACTION COMICS

WONDER WOMAN

HARLEY QUINN

TITANS and TEEN TITANS

SUICIDE SQUAD

HJ&TGLC (which is selling at a historic low)

NIGHTWING (which isn't doing all that well)

And two stragglers:

AQUAMAN

GREEN ARROW

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Probably a mix of favoritism, apathy, and, if the characters are unfortunate enough, convenience. DC has clearly shown preferences for certain minority characters and those are the ones they want to succeed. Everyone else? They don't care about them. At least, not in the way some of us would prefer them to care about them. It seems, to DC, as long as they are around and get some attention, that's good enough.

For those lucky enough to get solos, DC just plops them out there and expects people to buy them, when DC themselves don't put much backing for them. DC are very selective listeners when it comes to what fans want out of these characters. Heaven forbid it doesn't align with their thoughts in the first place. I mean, look at Cyborg. DC's most prominent black character and they can't even be bothered to have the editors keep his appearance, abilities, or progression consistent across the books, even books that take place within the same event.

Let's look at The New Age of Heroes. They seem to only be around because, instead of fixing the characters people had grievances with (Wally vs. New52 Wally for example), they decide to listen to the other side who want heroes done the "right way", i.e. new heroes who can be safely ignored and who are no threat to the DC "main" heroes spotlight. Ironically, they went all out for this. Superstar writers, artists, promotion, actually allowing these characters to pal around in the greater universe, the whole shebang...Do they not see how frustrating that is? These are the things we've been asking for for years for the minority characters DC already had, but because they barely put the effort in for them and they didn't quite catch on quickly, they just moved to the next thing instead of further nurturing them and do them for these characters. They listened, but only applied the critiques to characters they care more about. Don't get me wrong, I hope The New Age of Heroes catches on, but I'm afraid it'll come at the cost of the other minority heroes that came before. It's actually something I feared with this line of comics was first announced.

This reminds me of the Vibe vs Sideways debate a few weeks back and another user getting upset because minority heroes aren't getting focus in DC Zoom and Ink. Part of the problem is writers wanna create their own characters and that can come at a cost at the old favorites. I'm a writer myself so i don't think it's wrong that they do but it can be problematic in Marvel or DC.

Honestly mother panic or the new asian gl would have been better off at Valiant or one of the other comic companies.

Nu Wally is a bit of a lost cause until he gets his own name civilian and superhero. The best thing they did with him is his guest spot in deathstroke so I'd keep him there.

Just making him a kid again was pretty stupid as he should have been brought in like the others.

[Frontier]

The differnce here is that Ray himself is not a big character, he didn't had a solo since the 90s and the last time he was a regular member in a team book was the 1996 Teen Titans, since than he only had occasional guest appearances. So there isn't really much of a Fanbase that is desperately waiting for Ray to return. And that's similar with characters like Blue Beetle and Fire Storm.

I think Ray has a a kind of low-key fandom or appreciation for the DCU.

It's not, like, a rabid or overwhelming fandom, but it exists and appreciates whenever he's used.

Didn't he also get the least character focused episodes on the show? I know he did the worst in terms of a love interest and that bothered me too.

I don't think he got less focus then the other Titasn did.

I mean, without counting his focus episodes for each season I would say he's about even in terms of focus episodes, especially since season 3 was his season with the Brother Blood/Hive storyline.

As far as love interests, I remember there was a brief tease with Jinx that never went anywhere and a variant of Sara Simms that appeared in a fantasy setting Cyborg got transported too in one episode.

I don't think it was any worse then how Raven and Beast Boy's love lives ended up.

Correction, Original Wally replaced Barry during Infinite Earths. We're referring to New Wally West, who never took place in the legacy replacement window like his original counterpart did, and is part of the reason why he's not receiving the same level of success as his marvel counterparts do.

Who are his Marvel counterparts? The closest equivalent I can think of is the new Patriot or the Joaquin Torres Falcon.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/chips3.html

Christopher priest talked about why black comics didn't sell back in the day (2003)

[Ascended]

You do realize you're contradicting yourself don't you, you agree he needs a better design and he needs to look like a cyborg and not some guy in an Iron Man suit, but in the same breath you say he still looks human to you.

I'm not contradicting myself in the least.

Vic needs a design closer to what Reis did, which was streamlined and smooth and contemporary (with a little more skin showing), and less like what Jim Lee did, which looked like a bulky 80's throwback.

And yes, he still looks human. Look at his face. Despite the cybernetics the man is obviously still a person.

Also he legitimately can't be 100% human b/c that is not what a Cyborg is, unless you're talking about what he identifies as despite what his body is mostly made up as.

If he still has human DNA he's human.

So DC needs to realize that with Cyborg and demote him since he was only promoted for his racial representation which he can not successfully provide and Geoff Johns "love" of the character.

I take issue with the idea of demoting Vic just because he can't perfectly rep for African Americans. DC should absolutely be pushing other characters like Black Lightning, Vixen, Vibe, Dr. Light, etc. and if you like, you can point to one of them and call them the premier black/Hispanic/Eastern Asian hero of DC (once they start getting the pushes they deserve of course). But Vic is a strong character with tons of potential. That's absolutely worth pushing, regardless of the diversity/representation aspects.

And I've seen able-bodied kids and adults and disabled kids and adults disregard the character,

Okay? I never said that Vic was universally beloved, only that he has meant a great deal to some. A lot of people disregard Superman too, and he's the greatest idea the human race ever had.

I would never discourage someone from liking a character that's not what anyone is doing and that's usually not the point of any post that talks about the glaring negatives of Cyborg but I will debate you on the subject of him providing good repsentation.

If there are black, disabled, and black disabled invidiuals who identify with Cyborg b/c they deem him as good representation, I will not discourage them either but that's not gonna stop me from thinking they deserve better than this character b/c Cyborg is so ...*sigh*

Oh, dont get me wrong. The subtext with Vic being on the League the way its all been presented is an issue. Never said otherwise. Being the only disabled character, and being the only character to struggle with his self-image, while also being the only black character? That's a problem. I just dont think it cannot be overcome. The situation and Vic himself need to be handled far better than they have been, not disregarded completely.

I think the problem is the execution, not the concept. Vic, conceptually, is great. Vic, as DC often writes him? Not so much.

[leo619]

I think Ray has a a kind of low-key fandom or appreciation for the DCU.

It's not, like, a rabid or overwhelming fandom, but it exists and appreciates whenever he's used.

I don't think he got less focus then the other Titasn did.

I mean, without counting his focus episodes for each season I would say he's about even in terms of focus episodes, especially since season 3 was his season with the Brother Blood/Hive storyline.

As far as love interests, I remember there was a brief tease with Jinx that never went anywhere and a variant of Sara Simms that appeared in a fantasy setting Cyborg got transported too in one episode.

I don't think it was any worse then how Raven and Beast Boy's love lives ended up.

Who are his Marvel counterparts? The closest equivalent I can think of is the new Patriot or the Joaquin Torres Falcon.

I'd wager his counterparts would have been the ANAD legacy heroes, since part of the design behind them the advancement of diversity.
But you're right in terms of the closest similarity I can see is him and Joaquin Falcon. Though in that category, Wally would have a much bigger advantage
as being part of the Flash family is one of the biggest families in DC, while Falcon by himself can barely hold a series, let alone his protege. Also Wally's on
the teen titans while Falcon has been on and off the champions. So I'd say Wally is like a hybrid of ANAD heroes and Falcon.