Are Marvel and DC necessary for the future of comic?

[The Dying Detective]

Except Marvel has been making billions of dollars at the movies alone for 10 years now and that's just the movies. Again, besides a small group of fans, did anyone know about the Guardians of the Galaxy before 2014, now its a house hold name. Marvel is likely far more profitable now then it has in the past, could Marvel have a 4 billion asking price in the past. Its also controlled by the most powerful entertainment company out there, who has been selling adaptions for 80 years now, Marvel is not going away any time soon.

I think some fans do not want to admit that for Marvel and DC, their bread and butter is no longer comics and they are more general entertainment companies now.

You could right but then once the publishing divisions fold the writers and artists who are not used to working animation and live action shows will have to adapt And now their stories will to be told on the big screen and the small screen and it's not easy particularly when the new animation material I have seen is at a pretty low standard.

[Carabas]

But does that even matter any more? For Marvel and DC, the real money is made merchandising and other media, it doesn't matter that much how the comics are doing. Marvel could take the profits from one of their movies and use it fund the comic book division for several years if they wanted to.

It matters a great deal for comics publishers other than Marvel and DC, who see their industry being wrecked by two giants who don't even need to do comics to rake in the big bucks.

[The Dying Detective]

It matters a great deal for comics publishers other than Marvel and DC, who see their industry being wrecked by two giants who don't even need to do comics to rake in the big bucks.

That was a whole other story when then publisher Martin Goodman first saw the sale for Spider-Man whose first story came out in a dying magazine and when he saw the sales figures fireworks exploded. And Spider-Man got his own comic.

[The Overlord]

Somehow I beg to differ that print is dying out because there is still interest in printed material and it is necessary actually. And that's because the movie gave Guardians of the Galaxy a new fresh image just like writer Chris Claremont gave the X-Men a new more socially relevant image. MArvel's publishing division should have thought about it themselves but they didn't. So it's on them.

Newspaper and magazine profits are down though.

But's the thing, the movies, video games and TV series can put their own spin on these concepts and resell them for a mint, they are not bound by any mistakes made by the publishing side, heck, they can pick and chose which elements to highlight and which ones to ignore. Disney has been making successful adaptions since 1937, heck Disney could have Marvel make comic books about Planet of the Apes or Aliens or any franchise Fox used to own. Marvel and DC were able to increase the popularity of the X-Men and the Teen Titans through animated adaptions.

IDW is a comic book company that makes its bread and butter off buying the rights to established franchises (TMNT, Star Trek, Ghostbusters, etc) and they seem to be doing fine.

Disney did not buy Marvel to get into the comic book business, they did it to get the IP, the IP is what matters, not the format. In a way the characters have transcended their original format, the money is not in the comic books themselves anymore.

[The Overlord]

You could right but then once the publishing divisions fold the writers and artists who are not used to working animation and live action shows will have to adapt And now their stories will to be told on the big screen and the small screen and it's not easy particularly when the new animation material I have seen is at a pretty low standard.

Except they have decades of material they can adapt, that will not run out anytime soon, they can adapt stuff from any time and even add some new stuff in. Look at say Harley Quinn, she was created in a cartoon and then brought into the comics, this stuff just feeds off each other.

It matters a great deal for comics publishers other than Marvel and DC, who see their industry being wrecked by two giants who don't even need to do comics to rake in the big bucks.

That's just what's happening in the American media landscape in general. Disney just bought out Fox, we are clearly seeing entertainment industry being controlled by a smaller amount companies, the comic book industry just reflects entertainment industry in general. Its just the way it is.

I will say though, IDW seems to be doing well, simply by buying the rights to popular franchises (TMNT, Star Trek, Ghostbusters, etc). Heck TMNT started as an indie comic book and became a cultural landmark due to an animated adaption.

That was a whole other story when then publisher Martin Goodman first saw the sale for Spider-Man whose first story came out in a dying magazine and when he saw the sales figures fireworks exploded. And Spider-Man got his own comic.

We are not in the 60s anymore, times have changed.

Like I said, TMNT started as an indie comic book in the 80s, but made its real money from other media and merchandising. Guardians of the Galaxy was super obscure till the movie came out and now its a house hold name.

[Carabas]

That was a whole other story when then publisher Martin Goodman first saw the sale for Spider-Man whose first story came out in a dying magazine and when he saw the sales figures fireworks exploded. And Spider-Man got his own comic.

And the relevancy of this in 2018 is ?

[Mister Mets]

It's like asking if Disney is necessary for the future of film, or if Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo are necessary for the future of video games.

The medium could survive otherwise, but the top companies do good work, that typically leaves everyone better off.

[The Dying Detective]

And the relevancy of this in 2018 is ?

No but if Marvel and DC actually put their heads together and came up with a solid plan and stay that course you could see it happening again instead of new number ones, universe shaking events, replacements that hardly anyone wants, and shock gags. They just need to craft good solid stories which they lack in this day and age.

[The Dying Detective]

Except they have decades of material they can adapt, that will not run out anytime soon, they can adapt stuff from any time and even add some new stuff in. Look at say Harley Quinn, she was created in a cartoon and then brought into the comics, this stuff just feeds off each other.

I was talking about a whole other medium which they might not be familiar with compared to the comic book format and novel format and might not know how use.

We are not in the 60s anymore, times have changed.

Like I said, TMNT started as an indie comic book in the 80s, but made its real money from other media and merchandising. Guardians of the Galaxy was super obscure till the movie came out and now its a house hold name.

Of course not but they acutally think for once in their lives it would be a whole other story.

[The Overlord]

I was talking about a whole other medium which they might not be familiar with compared to the comic book format and novel format and might not know how use.

Except Marvel has been making a ton of money adapting its stories into other media, heck I like the movie Civil War story better then the comic book it was based on. The comic to media to comic cycle feeds on itself, characters like Firestar, X-23 and Harley Quinn started as cartoons and became comic book characters.

Of course not but they acutally think for once in their lives it would be a whole other story.

But so what at this point? Like I said, for almost anything, from TMNT to Walking Dead to Guardians of the Galaxy the money is in other media. Heck Millar sold the rights to all his independently created stuff to Netflix recently

I will bring you another example of something that is independently made and has made a name for itself, RWBY, which started off as a web cartoon that took a lot of anime tropes and put them in an American style fantasy story. It made its bones as an animated series, now it has a Manga adaption, lots of merchandise and those characters will appear in the new Blazblue fighting game. I am not sure RWBY would have been as successfully as a comic book.

[MRP]

No but if Marvel and DC actually put their heads together and came up with a solid plan and stay that course you could see it happening again instead of new number ones, universe shaking events, replacements that hardly anyone wants, and shock gags. They just need to craft good solid stories which they lack in this day and age.

the problem with sales has little to do with content. For comics to sell to more customers, they have to be available to be bought by people who aren't buying them now. However, print runs are set to preorders and the only people preordering are hardcore comics fans. And the economics of the direct market preclude ordering more copies than you can sell because (according to Brian Hibbs in his excellent Tilting at Windmills column) you have to sell 4 out of every 5 copies ordered to make a profit. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra copies to be bough to grow sales. There are too many titles fighting for not enough space so it it is difficult if not impossible for retailer sot order deep on titles because they have to order so broad just to cover the Marvel and DC books being offered, let alone other publishers. Tying up operating capital in stock that doesn't sell is disaster for small businesses, so retailers cannot stock to have product for sale that may not sell because it is non-returnable.

Secondly-where are new customers going to come from? Comic shops are niche destination shops and only people who are already buying comics are going to go there. In order to sell more copies, either people who aren't buying comics currently have to have a reason to come to comic shops, or you have to put comics where people might buy them and that is not the direct market. The direct market is not designed to be a growth market. The economics don't work for retailers buying non-returnable product to stock for growth, and the market model is not designed to put the product in front of potential new customers.

Until these types of infrastructure problems are solved, the content of the comics won't matter to sales. The hardcore audience are habitual buyers, and the current size of the market pie is small and shrinking. Customers switching from Marvel to DC to Image and back because of content doesn't grow the pie, it just re-slices it. Most will keep buying books even if they don't like the content to keep runs together or because they can't not buy it because they might miss out on something mentality. Changing content might get these folks to buy a few more books here or there, but it's not going to be enough to substantially grow the industry and isn't a solution for what ails the industry. At best it's a bandaid on a would that is bleeding out.

If you want to increase sales you have to evolve the business model, not the content. The popularity of movies and tv shows based on super-heroes shows there is interest in those characters and stories. What there is not interest in is monthly pamphlets of 20 pages sold at $3 or $4 each sold in specialty shops that are not available in large parts of the US (and rare in other countries too) that you can't look at before you buy because they have to be preordered before you see them or you will not likely be able to get them. That is a niche market not a mass market. The direct market is a niche market. Niche markets are not growth markets. They are not designed to sell to a mass audience, That is the core of the problem plaguing the industry, not the content. Until those issues are addressed, sales will continue to shrink as people leave the niche market and there is no mechanism to acquire new customers to replace them or increase the number of customers overall.

It looks like DC is actually doing a few things to address these issues recently (the announcement of the Ink and Zoom lines, the DC in DC event, etc.) and is actually trying to find ways to put product in front of people who could become new customers. It might be too little too late, but it is at least a step in the right direction.

-M

[Carabas]

No but if Marvel and DC actually put their heads together and came up with a solid plan and stay that course you could see it happening again instead of new number ones, universe shaking events, replacements that hardly anyone wants, and shock gags. They just need to craft good solid stories which they lack in this day and age.

What makes you believe they could?

Any realistic solution is incompatible with their business model of floppies uber alles.

[The Overlord]

the problem with sales has little to do with content. For comics to sell to more customers, they have to be available to be bought by people who aren't buying them now. However, print runs are set to preorders and the only people preordering are hardcore comics fans. And the economics of the direct market preclude ordering more copies than you can sell because (according to Brian Hibbs in his excellent Tilting at Windmills column) you have to sell 4 out of every 5 copies ordered to make a profit. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra copies to be bough to grow sales. There are too many titles fighting for not enough space so it it is difficult if not impossible for retailer sot order deep on titles because they have to order so broad just to cover the Marvel and DC books being offered, let alone other publishers. Tying up operating capital in stock that doesn't sell is disaster for small businesses, so retailers cannot stock to have product for sale that may not sell because it is non-returnable.

Secondly-where are new customers going to come from? Comic shops are niche destination shops and only people who are already buying comics are going to go there. In order to sell more copies, either people who aren't buying comics currently have to have a reason to come to comic shops, or you have to put comics where people might buy them and that is not the direct market. The direct market is not designed to be a growth market. The economics don't work for retailers buying non-returnable product to stock for growth, and the market model is not designed to put the product in front of potential new customers.

Until these types of infrastructure problems are solved, the content of the comics won't matter to sales. The hardcore audience are habitual buyers, and the current size of the market pie is small and shrinking. Customers switching from Marvel to DC to Image and back because of content doesn't grow the pie, it just re-slices it. Most will keep buying books even if they don't like the content to keep runs together or because they can't not buy it because they might miss out on something mentality. Changing content might get these folks to buy a few more books here or there, but it's not going to be enough to substantially grow the industry and isn't a solution for what ails the industry. At best it's a bandaid on a would that is bleeding out.

If you want to increase sales you have to evolve the business model, not the content. The popularity of movies and tv shows based on super-heroes shows there is interest in those characters and stories. What there is not interest in is monthly pamphlets of 20 pages sold at $3 or $4 each sold in specialty shops that are not available in large parts of the US (and rare in other countries too) that you can't look at before you buy because they have to be preordered before you see them or you will not likely be able to get them. That is a niche market not a mass market. The direct market is a niche market. Niche markets are not growth markets. They are not designed to sell to a mass audience, That is the core of the problem plaguing the industry, not the content. Until those issues are addressed, sales will continue to shrink as people leave the niche market and there is no mechanism to acquire new customers to replace them or increase the number of customers overall.

It looks like DC is actually doing a few things to address these issues recently (the announcement of the Ink and Zoom lines, the DC in DC event, etc.) and is actually trying to find ways to put product in front of people who could become new customers. It might be too little too late, but it is at least a step in the right direction.

-M

I think things could change with online distrubition of comics, that is where the market will be in the future.

I also think the adaptions do better then the comics themselves because they learn from their mistakes, the movie Civil War is better then its comic book counterpart and the MCU seems like a place where actions have consequences. Also the continuity is much better in the MCU.

[MRP]

I think things could change with online distrubition of comics, that is where the market will be in the future.

I also think the adaptions do better then the comics themselves because they learn from their mistakes, the movie Civil War is better then its comic book counterpart and the MCU seems like a place where actions have consequences. Also the continuity is much better in the MCU.

There are already numerous outlets to buy comics online from DCBS to mycomicshop to TFAW to Amazon, and it hasn't slowed the attrition of sales in the industry. The mass audience is not interested in the periodical format for the most part and that is one of the issues the industry needs to address if they want to grow sales.

How many product formats developed int he 1930s still appeal to modern audiences? A lot of content originated in that time still sells, but not in the product format it was sold in then. The telling of stories in panels and pages using words and pictures is comics. Comics are still viable, but the slim periodical format may not be. Businesses and industries either evolve or die regardless of the product they sell. COmics need to evolve to survive in a 21st century marketplace.

-M

[The Overlord]

There are already numerous outlets to buy comics online from DCBS to mycomicshop to TFAW to Amazon, and it hasn't slowed the attrition of sales in the industry. The mass audience is not interested in the periodical format for the most part and that is one of the issues the industry needs to address if they want to grow sales.

How many product formats developed int he 1930s still appeal to modern audiences? A lot of content originated in that time still sells, but not in the product format it was sold in then. The telling of stories in panels and pages using words and pictures is comics. Comics are still viable, but the slim periodical format may not be. Businesses and industries either evolve or die regardless of the product they sell. COmics need to evolve to survive in a 21st century marketplace.

-M

I mean as in you read the comics online, rather then buying floppys online. There are several sites that let you buy and read comics online.

I think comic book characters more popular then ever just in different media and there are is more entertainment competition now then in the 30s.