Is Marvel's "Minority"/PC Month trying too hard?

[Tiamatty]

ABC is in every house with a TV that is plugged in and its lowest rated shows are seen by more unique viewers than 90% of the movies released.

Agents of SHIELD ended its season with less than 6 million viewers, despite being in pretty much every home. What do you think the odds are that the Netflix shows will get that many? What do you think the odds are they get even half as many viewers?

If the topic is cultural penetration a show with 10ish episodes that is discussed on websites, talked about on poscasts, tweeted about, mentioned on tumbler, blogs for weeks and then again during year as TV seasons come and go.

In other words would you rather have your character be the next Walter White, or Don Drapper or would you want him to be what ever Mark Wahlberg's name in the Transformers is? Would you rather be talked about for years or moved past after a week or two in the theaters. Which has more cultural penetration in the long term?

Let's be honest here, these shows aren't going to be Mad Men or Breaking Bad. These are going to be shows that fall into the middle of the deck, at best. They're not going to have large amounts of cultural penetration. Certainly less than the movies do. You can't not be aware of the movies - if you watch TV, or go on the Internet, you're going to hear about the movies. That's not the case with the Marvel shows - those have to be actively sought out. They're not going to be getting tons of praise in newspaper articles and on talk shows and all that, the way shows like Mad Men or Breaking Bad did.

At the end of the day, these will be largely niche shows, with a largely niche audience. Most people won't even realize they exist. So they're not going to have anywhere near the impact that the movies do. If you make a Luke Cage movie, then everyone will know that there's a Marvel character named Luke Cage. Making a show about Luke Cage, you get a smaller number of people, most of them people who already know about the character anyway.

[Rheged]

Agents of SHIELD ended its season with less than 6 million viewers, despite being in pretty much every home. What do you think the odds are that the Netflix shows will get that many? What do you think the odds are they get even half as many viewers?


Let's be honest here, these shows aren't going to be Mad Men or Breaking Bad. These are going to be shows that fall into the middle of the deck, at best. They're not going to have large amounts of cultural penetration. Certainly less than the movies do. You can't not be aware of the movies - if you watch TV, or go on the Internet, you're going to hear about the movies. That's not the case with the Marvel shows - those have to be actively sought out. They're not going to be getting tons of praise in newspaper articles and on talk shows and all that, the way shows like Mad Men or Breaking Bad did.

At the end of the day, these will be largely niche shows, with a largely niche audience. Most people won't even realize they exist. So they're not going to have anywhere near the impact that the movies do. If you make a Luke Cage movie, then everyone will know that there's a Marvel character named Luke Cage. Making a show about Luke Cage, you get a smaller number of people, most of them people who already know about the character anyway.

You mean the same audience that saw the movies? I think you are selling the Netflix shows short.

Hopefully the Netflix shows will be better done than AoS -- they certainly will have less restrictions.

[Tiamatty]

You mean the same audience that saw the movies? I think you are selling the Netflix shows short.

Hopefully the Netflix shows will be better done than AoS -- they certainly will have less restrictions.

It'll be a portion of the audience that saw the movies. I'd be surprised if it gets even a tenth of the audience the movies get. Two or three hours of explosions is fun, but watching an entire show takes more commitment, and most people already have a shit-ton of shows to watch, and probably aren't really all that interested in an entire series about superheroes.

[Rheged]

Actually, I would say it probably is a fact. White women, for all the problems they face in society, are still white. Being white does grant them some degree of acceptance that racial minorities don't get.

Yes, this is why we have a black male president instead of a white female president.

Please. Stop. Women of any color face problems and discrimination that men, even PoC men, absolutely do not have to deal with.

For white LGBT, they do have some advantage in being able to pass for the privileged group. They shouldn't have to pass, but that option is available to them. The average white gay man, if he doesn't tell people he's gay, isn't going to face the same struggles faced by other minority groups.

Like there's not been PoC that can pass? If you are passing, you've removed yourself from the problems. That shouldn't even factor into this discussion.

It's not to diminish the struggles faced by white women or white LGBT people. It's just to acknowledge that, in Western culture, being white is always going to be better than being any other race. That visible minorities have the deck stacked against them in fun ways that white people, even women and LGBT people, don't have to put up with.

You ARE diminishing the struggles faced by white women, and considering white LGBT can't even get married or have spousal benefits, white LGBT too.

Being male, ANYWHERE, is better than being female or LGBT, as far as having the decked stacked.

[Tiamatty]

Yes, this is why we have a black male president instead of a white female president.

Please. Stop. Women of any color face problems and discrimination that men, even PoC men, absolutely do not have to deal with.

Yes, white women face problems black men don't. But often, those problems actually come about, at least partly, as a result of an overall higher social standard. For example, women being sexually harassed in the workplace is a serious problem, but on the other hand, unemployment among black people is twice the national average. I don't want this to sound callous, but "at least white women have jobs" does pass through the mind.

Also, I don't think Obama really proves anything one way or the other.

Like there's not been PoC that can pass? If you are passing, you've removed yourself from the problems. That shouldn't even factor into this discussion.

It's tougher for people of colour to pass, on account of, you know, having a different skin colour. And I don't see why it wouldn't factor in.

You ARE diminishing the struggles faced by white women, and considering white LGBT can't even get married or have spousal benefits, white LGBT too.

Being male, ANYWHERE, is better than being female or LGBT, as far as having the decked stacked.

No, I'm really not diminishing anyone's problems. Honestly, I spend more time thinking about the problems faced by women and the LGBT community than I do those faced by racial minorities. So by no means do I think the problems faced by women and LGBT people are trivial. But I still believe that the problems faced by racial minorities are probably, in general, more severe.

[Rheged]

It looks like I'm required to hold your hand through another aspect of life.

If you're actually putting a white LGBT person or a white woman on the same level as a ethnic minority then you're just being silly.

Of course. If a woman dares to disagree with an obviously biased male outlook, of any ethnicity, she's silly. #male privilege

As ethnic folks from BOTH of those groups (ethnic LGBT and ethnic feminists) have constantly brought up issues over how they are met with racism FROM the white people that they're supposed to be aligned with. Or how (just as often) they're pushed aside and their voices been drowned out by the aforementioned folks, because they have achieved a minority status to use as a platform. Even though they're supposed to be a minority group, there's still an apparent hierarchy.

Don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs. As a bi-racial female who lived in Alabama and Asia during the 60s, I am intimately familiar with racism ... and sexism. I never said white women or white LGBT were worse off than their ethnic counterparts, but I guess you missed that in your hurry to grab my hand.

There is a hierarchy, but male PoC aren't below women or LGBT.

[Tiamatty]

Of course, this has all gotten away from being about comics. So we should probably try to move back to the topic of comics.

[Silvermoth]

It's not a competition. Both women and people of colour face unfair and imbalanced problems in the modern world

[whiterabbit]

There's no way this status quo can be maintained next year unless Marvel wants to skip out on what's best for their company in terms of marketing and sales. They can make Steve Rogers "Nomad" and Thor "Not-Thor", but the simple fact is that people associate these particular characters with their most ideal profile. Geoff Johns could give a Green Lantern ring to the Batman and people will still see him as Batman.

I read Thor for Thor, not for some Spawn character I've never read. I wouldn't be buying Superman if they replaced him with Mon-El, as cool as he is. So why would new readers, even if they relaunch a ton of titles back to #1 (which they will), want to buy a female Thor they don't know about or Falcon-Cap?

Two Captain America books and two Thor books? One for the normal Captain America and Falcon-Cap and one book for Thor and female Thor each?

[Victor Freeman]

Actually, I would say it probably is a fact. White women, for all the problems they face in society, are still white. Being white does grant them some degree of acceptance that racial minorities don't get. For white LGBT, they do have some advantage in being able to pass for the privileged group. They shouldn't have to pass, but that option is available to them. The average white gay man, if he doesn't tell people he's gay, isn't going to face the same struggles faced by other minority groups.

It's not to diminish the struggles faced by white women or white LGBT people. It's just to acknowledge that, in Western culture, being white is always going to be better than being any other race. That visible minorities have the deck stacked against them in fun ways that white people, even women and LGBT people, don't have to put up with.

See? If I was going to submit the post that I was going to respond with, I'd have probably been banned by the morning. So I'll just say "this".

Whiteness is one heck of a currency. In not only the West, but in many other parts of the world. You'd have to be one seriously sheltered individual to be so ignorant of reality, that you'd deny that.

Pretty much this. Not that it's a competition. But pretending that all things are equal, is a bit off.

[Fokken]

Was there this much hoopla when Cap's shield and title went to other dudes in the past?

Or when Loki switched genders? (which, for those who don't know, is NOT happening with Thor. They are not changing Thor's gender. A woman is claiming the hammer and connective title)

And is this mantle stuff Cap specific, or does the same amount of outrage transpire with any title transference? The title of Captain Marvel, for example, being shared among so many? Or Hawkeye? Or Ant Man?

And lastly, do we know WHY Sam is getting the shield and title yet? Or is this all a bunch of premature outrage that may have a legitimate and satisfying explanation?

Entirely appreciative to any and all responses to these inquiries.
Thanks all!

[Kieran_Frost]

*Kieran Frost rolls up his sleeves...*

The "Pandering" complaint ONLY comes up when the character being promoted isn't a straight white male.

Sadly, many of us here knows that is 100% true. We see it all the time. If a white writer adds a black male to the comic, it's "bold, and innovative", if a black writer does is it we get "forcing their agenda". We can't "win" in the eyes of some, maybe it would be better to not try and educate? NO! We may not be getting through to those trying stuck in their views of the world (and their opinions of minorities) but far more people read the posts than actually post. And I guarantee we are getting through to some of them, and THAT makes all these threads worth it. It's not about converting the absolutes (that will almost never happen), it's about enlighteing those who are open to hearing about how minorities feel when they see someone "just like them." So... silver lining.

That said, it's an uninformed claim, as the Guardians never were racially diverse -- except for Mantis, who was green, so apparently, she doesn't count either. The only diversity that got scrubbed for Bendis' GotG was LGBT, as they still have women on the team.

I give Bendis the benefit of the doubt when it comes to that, because he's one of the most consistent writers to use LGBT characters.

Again, you're making this about Sam taking the position. I'm not, I think Sam was the most logical choice to pick up the shield right now. I am complaining about marketing making this about nothing more than his race. Marvel sent an executive to a popular political TV show and discussed nothing more about the story than his race. It's not like I'm saying "Sam was born in Kenya and shouldn't be Captain America!" I'm saying "Can marketing give me a little more about this than just his race?" The Obama campaign would have failed miserably if the only thing they said was "He'll be the first black president." In fact they made a point of ignoring questions about race because they felt the content of his message was more important.

At this point I have less and less faith in the content of the New Captain America book. Not only is it a story that was just told recently, but the continuing market strategy is to point out that he's African American.

I have to ask... why do you care so much? If it's purely you don't like how the original announcement was handled, fine, but... aren't you over it by now? You keep saying you're okay with Sam taking the position, and it's purely how they announced it yet you are spending A LOT of time arguing against this, A LOT of time saying why it won't work, A LOT of time being negatitve, for someone who is "okay" with Sam being Cap or Thor being female...

I'm happy that Marvel is trying to diversify; I just don't understand when "replaces" a character like Captain America with an established character like Falcon. We know it will eventually revert back to Rogers taking the shield, but then what will they do with Falcon?

The same thing they did with Bucky, Daken, Herc, T'Challa... use that boost to move them up and up in profile, add to the momentum and doing something wonderful with them.

I want a Luke Cage ongoing. Black writer, black artist, "all-black everything," to quote Jay Z. (And naturally I'd want the writer and artist to have talent and write a story that I'm interested in reading.)

My stomach is churning just imagining the level of internet fan RAGE that would descend with the fiery power of GOD if that happened. I love the idea... but if that happened, I might avoid CBR for a few weeks. I wouldn't be able to handle the crazy...

[Kieran_Frost]

And you obviously didn't even read the Aaron interview because in said interview he discusses much more than just "Thor" being female:

----------
"With that in mind, it sounds like this new "Thor" volume will have all of the action fans of your run love, but it will also feature a mystery and quite a bit of political intrigue. Is that accurate?
AARON: Absolutely, yes. There's certainly a lot of intrigue and dark maneuvering between all of these different realms that is very clearly building towards some kind of massive conflict. We're starting to see different realms align. We saw Malekith, the king of the Dark Elves, broker a deal with the Frost Giants, and we'll start to see the fruits of that collaboration. We'll start to see some other characters join that cabal as well; characters both new and old.


So in the coming months we'll see the return of some familiar villains from Thor's past. That means this new Thor will certainly have her hands full and will have no shortage of people lining up to take her on including at some point, as you might expect, the previous version of Thor..."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...storyContinued

-------

At this point it is obvious that you are just reaching for some reason -- any reason -- to be "right", even to the point of blatantly ignoring facts (the Colbert interview was NOT about "all about race" no matter how much you say otherwise and announcing a female Thor on The View is in no way "sexist" to anyone who understands what sexism really is all about).

Ultimately, the bottom line is this: Marvel is not "trying too hard" to make changes that should have been made decades ago. Maybe you don't agree with how they are going about it and that is fine. But that's not the issue here because maybe you're not the one that they are marketing to with these television interviews and character changes.

Which is exactly the point -- this isn't about you and maybe that's what upsets you (and others like you) even though you can't truly explain why. Claiming that you don't want to see any mention of race or gender is a cop-out -- race and gender issues exist and covering your eyes and ears will not make them go away. Quite the contrary, these things need to be discussed openly because true "equality" is still just a vision, rather than reality.

As everyone has already pointed out, it's funny how this kind of marketing was never considered (negative) "pandering" until the characters in question weren't white males anymore.

At the end of the day, that's probably the real issue here: despite any arguments to contrary, nothing changes the reality of that observation because said observation is really what's at the heart of this entire discussion.

Your post speaks so much beautiful truth, it is worth repeating again and again.

Second off, a team IS diverse, even if it doesn't have racial minority, if it has other minorities.

We're still trying to educate and enlighten. It's a slow process. But more and more female and LGBT diversity IS being acknowledged by the masses. Which is a good thing to hold on-to.

Okay, with Mantis, are we counting minorities who have been painted another color? Or not? I'm confused about that, since we apparently aren't counting Zoe Saldana or Bautista as minorities since they are green.

It always becomes difficult. When discussing minorities it does seem a bit "pick-and-choose"; and I get why, each person has their own opinion on it; there is no hard and fast rule for it. I think putting things in brackets helps. So (arguably?) helps at-least identify there is BOTH a reason to count them and a reason to question that.

Same as I don't count Psylocke as a minority, because she was originally white.

Well she's female and (possibly) LGBT, so she's still a minority, but I get what you meant. Personally... I count Psylocke. Not because she is born Asian, but because, on covers and in many stories... it doesn't matter. It's still diversity for someone to see, it's still a character a little girl can look at and see herself in. For example the recent X-men covers (in my eyes) were nearly all WOC, outside of Rachel. That's awesome, and when looking at the cover all you can see is WOC. In that instance Psylocke being born white makes no difference to the fact a major comic has a cover proudly showing numerous POC. I get why some don't count her, but it's a little disingenuous. We count Mettle or Bling! as POC but Psylocke 100% doesn't count? When, visually, she's more POC than either of them; and (to a casual observer, which let's be fair, is the majority of comic readers) does more in "representing" POC than either of the other two. In my mind it's more than just being present, it's also important to represent. Does she represent perfectly? HELL NO! But then again... neither does purple skinned Bling! or an LGBT character who is sexless, or a female computer who looks androgynous.

I just find it odd calling women a minority when they actually make up slightly more than half the population.

As Kasper rightly said, it's not about numbers but the power and privilege that comes with it. Women in many Middle Eastern countries are VASTLY the "majority" in numbers, but easily one of the most oppressed classes in that society.

And that reminds me. What people like to "forget" is that while white women and white lgbt's are technically minorities, they are noticeably better off their ethnic counterparts. And even ethnic males in many instances. Being a minority isn't a "zero sum game".

Oh dear...

[Michael P]

Worth noting that Mantis is half-Vietnamese.

[aja_christopher]

I gave up on the old Marvel Has A Diversity Problem thread, like the new Marvel Minority thread, cause much like this thread, the participants seemed to believe diversity is only about race and it never felt welcoming to women. Plus, I got tired of people expecting any PoC character to be treated like Wolverine, or it was racism.

Completely untrue.

If anyone was on that thread almost 24/7 it was me, and though we had differences of opinion on things like LGBT, black, and female representation, the "participants" there were all very diverse in their opinions on the matter, which was often colored by personal perspective.

As I explained to K. Frost (way back in the day) of course he is going to feel that LGBT representation might be more needed, just as a "straight" black male might feel that straight black male representation is more needed, just as a woman might feel that female representation is more needed.

I even went so far as to post a chart that broke down the representation of each minority group in Marvel comics in an effort to end the "debate" in an objective manner because it really made no sense to fight amongst ourselves over something that couldn't be proven either way.

The fact is that each and every one of the opinions on who is more "oppressed" is subjective and there's really no point in arguing about it. Women face sexual harassment and assault issues that most men could never relate to. LBGT people face discrimination in many ways that most straight people could never relate to. Likewise for black males...

...and for Asians, and for Latinos, and for Native Americans, etc, etc. So what's the point of debating it, other than to try to drag others down rather than lifting everyone up?

If you are choosing to focus on those who you disagree with and ignore all those (like myself) who think it serves no purpose to make this about who is more "oppressed" then you are being just as "selective" in your vision as those who claim that diversity is all about "pandering".

Look -- we've got a "black" Captain America and a "female" Thor. If anything, we shouldn't be arguing over female and black representation -- we should be asking why there aren't more Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, Muslims, LGBT characters, etc, etc getting the same "push" as black and female characters seem to be getting.

Even many of the posters you are arguing with have agreed that we probably should get back to the subject at hand, so why continue to fight over something you know won't be resolved in this dialogue?