Is Marvel's "Minority"/PC Month trying too hard?

[megaharrison]

A Falcon solo would fail inside a year. Same with a Valkyrie solo - Fearless Defenders only made it to 12 issues. The Sif-led Journey Into Mystery only lasted 9 issues, despite being praised for both the writing and art. Marvel's readers refuse to read any comic that hasn't been in continuous publication for 50 years. Falcon as Captain America is the only way more than a small number of people will actually buy a Falcon series. There's a chance - albeit a frustratingly tiny one - that Falcon's time as Cap could maybe, potentially, lead to a handful more people picking up a Falcon ongoing when he goes back to that identity. It would still be almost certain to fail - because, again, if a book didn't start in the '60s, people refuse to read it - but it would have a better chance than if they launched it without him being Cap first.

1.) Maybe it says something that Marvel's readership doesn't want to read these books? Is Marvel somehow obligated to shove things down readers throats even if it they don't want it? All in the name of "progression"? That sounds silly and elitist, to me. Blaming the consumer for these books selling is also short-sighted and unreasonable.

2.) As I said before. Remember the Guardians of the Galaxy? Few years ago, it's safe to say they were C-list if not D-List. Now, they're A-Listers for Marvel. And having all the GOTG killed or turned into black people or replacing the Avengers or etc. had nothing to do with it. Marvel just launched a media blitz to promote the characters on their own terms and merits

And we've already seen that readers don't have a single shit to give about any Asgardian other than Thor. But, again, there's the slim, miniscule possibility that people may follow Lady Thor to her own title after she gives up the Thor title.

As for meeting "quotas," that remains crap. This isn't about "quotas," it's about trying to move away from the same damned white guys created 50 years ago being the only characters that anyone is willing to read. It's about trying to create a more diverse line, and hopefully, in the process, bring in a more diverse audience.

Do we really need to be so race-focused? Is the only way to get black people to read is by cheap race-bending stunts? I read Blade comics and love Blade movies without any notice he isn't the same color as me.

And quota is precisely the right word here. Marvel says "we need x amount of black/girl/whatever characters in y", and then they play with things until they meet that goal. That's fulfilling a quota, not writing a story.

Right now, the only characters who sell are the ones created when black people still had separate drinking fountains and women were fighting for the right to wear pants. That, right now, at this moment, is the era that Marvel is still stuck with. And that is horrifying. The characters created at that time were overwhelmingly white males, and those white males are the only ones whose books actually sell worth a damn. Which means that unless Marvel can get people reading new characters, they're going to be stuck publishing stories exclusively about those same white males, even as the nation - and the world - becomes increasingly diverse, and white males become a smaller and smaller portion of the population. And as that happens, Marvel is going to look increasingly outdated and absurd. At this point, getting women and minorities interested in comics is an absolute necessity for survival.

What? First off, Falcon and Cage both appeared after segregation had ended. Secondly, this is ridiculous that because x character was originally conceived during y time, that somehow you need to punish other books rather than modernize the character on their own terms and merits.

And you just said that these minority books never sell, then you said it's necessary for Marvel's survival. Seems contradictory to me. To "adapt" to a more "diverse" world, why can't Marvel just heavily promote Falcon and Valkyrie instead of changing other characters?

So hell yeah, they're going to go on the View, and Colbert, and hopefully BET and Univision and any-frigging-where else they can think of. They need to try every single stunt they can think of to get the attention of people outside the ever-shrinking niche of the current comic reading audience. Otherwise, they're going to go out of business.

Not really, the movies will ensure comics aren't going anywhere for a while. And shrinking comic readership in general has nothing to do with race/gender but rather changes in technology and entertainment and the lingering legacy of the 90's crash. There's nothing to indicate that comic companies risk going out of business because of attitudes by black people and women.

[oldforce]

Haha, yes.

[megaharrison]

No, I'm saying that if they were quietly released they would remain as they are, not as popular as Captain America and Thor. However, I do agree that the concepts have enough juice that they could be A-listers . . . given the appropriate marketing/branding. That's how selling something works. My point is, at what point is the stunt not-that-stunty to make it acceptable to you? To me, with the tools that are at Marvel's disposal, using legacy to profile and push characters is as good a way as any, both to diversify (I actually do believe having representations of minority characters and women are important enough that I give-no-fracks if it's *for the sake of it*. It's own sake is enough) and to tell cool stories.

"Appropriate" marketing/branding to me is what Marvel did with the GOTG, how they went from C-List to A-List in the span of about 3 years, without race/gender-bending, sabotaging other books, or replacing other popular characters. The GOTG became big without having them replace all the Avengers, or move into Iron Man (rather, Iron Man moved into GOTG!). Marvel's making a raccoon a A-lister without any of these Falcon/She-Thor/Black Fury/etc. gimmicks, a raccoon, and you're saying they can't do it with a black man? Marvel's doing the same thing with the Inhumans right now, albeit a bit more obnoxiously since they're taking over the Avengers

[oldforce]

. . . Falcon and Cage both appeared after segregation had ended.

Segregation hasn't ended. It's just different.

[aja_christopher]

Do we really need to be so race-focused? Is the only way to get black people to read is by cheap race-bending stunts? I read Blade comics and love Blade movies without any notice he isn't the same color as me.

And quota is precisely the right word here. Marvel says "we need x amount of black/girl/whatever characters in y", and then they play with things until they meet that goal. That's fulfilling a quota, not writing a story.

Not really, the movies will ensure comics aren't going anywhere for a while. And shrinking comic readership in general has nothing to do with race/gender but rather changes in technology and entertainment and the lingering legacy of the 90's crash. There's nothing to indicate that comic companies risk going out of business because of attitudes by black people and women.

You keep talking about "quotas" but you have no proof that any such thing exists -- just your assumption that Marvel has some "agenda" other than broadening it's market to the largest possible audience, just as any smart business would do. It's an obvious talking point ("quotas", "affirmative action", etc) that demeans the characters in question, as if they (and we "minorities" in general) aren't deserving of things that we have EARNED through persistence, dedication and effort.

Likewise, your focus on "black" people -- as if we are some outside entity whose stories can't be enjoyed by everyone -- is very telling. Why is a series about a "black" Captain America (Sam Wilson) allegedly aimed at "black" readers while a story or movie about Peter Parker or Tony Stark is meant for everyone?

You are utilizing a very blatant double-standard in your arguments -- is it your belief that people of all races can't enjoy a "white" hero or does that "logic" apply only when the character isn't "white"? If so, I have to ask, why is that? If not, then why are so concerned about Sam (or Kamala or Miles) doing something that "white" characters have been doing for decades?

So Bucky can step up and be Cap and there's no mention of this being aimed at "white" readers but when it's Sam, suddenly it's about "black people" and "black readership".

It's not at all hard to read between the lines of what you keep trying to say here -- that somehow "white" is right and everyone else is the "other".

Until that attitude changes, it's highly doubtful you're going to see anyone's perspective on this matter but your own, which is limited by the same racial tunnel vision that you accuse others of having, despite the fact that most of us have been very open to Latino, Asian, LGBT, Native, Muslim, and any other type of "minority" hero they want to put out there.

You seem to be far more focused on race than those you are disagreeing with. That said, it would be easy enough for you to ignore Sam's "race" (and any marketing that might be attached) and focus instead on the fact that we may get a few good stories out of it as well as some welcome character development to boot.

Again, no one is forcing you to buy this title -- I'm black and I don't know that i'll pick it up... which is exactly my point. You're the one making this mostly about race here: the vast majority of us ("minority" or otherwise) just want to read a good story and if the character involved happens to be a "minority" as well, then more power to them.

[Tiamatty]

Does . . . does that mean you agree or disagree?

1.) Maybe it says something that Marvel's readership doesn't want to read these books? Is Marvel somehow obligated to shove things down readers throats even if it they don't want it? All in the name of "progression"? That sounds silly and elitist, to me. Blaming the consumer for these books selling is also short-sighted and unreasonable.

Right, the existing readers don't want to read anything that hasn't been continuously published for 50 years. Quality doesn't matter at all to the average reader, what matters is that it's Captain America, or Thor.

2.) As I said before. Remember the Guardians of the Galaxy? Few years ago, it's safe to say they were C-list if not D-List. Now, they're A-Listers for Marvel. And having all the GOTG killed or turned into black people or replacing the Avengers or etc. had nothing to do with it. Marvel just launched a media blitz to promote the characters on their own terms and merits

Is it worth pointing out that the GotG only really started to be successful after the cast was reduced to a white man, two green people, a tree and a raccoon? That they only caught on when the book was reduced to the least diverse possible cast?

But yes, the movie has made them successful. However, Marvel's publishing division has no control over the movies, so they can't tell the movie arm, "Hey, we want to give Falcon a push, so give him a solo movie." The comics side cannot rely on the movie side getting its shit together and finally making movies about characters other than the same white dudes over and over and frigging over. The comics side needs to do what it can on its own to attract new readers.

Do we really need to be so race-focused? Is the only way to get black people to read is by cheap race-bending stunts? I read Blade comics and love Blade movies without any notice he isn't the same color as me.

And quota is precisely the right word here. Marvel says "we need x amount of black/girl/whatever characters in y", and then they play with things until they meet that goal. That's fulfilling a quota, not writing a story.

Marvel is not saying they need a specific number of characters of specific types. What they're doing is simply trying to do a better job at getting female and minority characters visible to readers.

And as for race not mattering - I suspect it doesn't matter to people who've never felt particularly ostracized for their race. White people, obviously, pretty much control the country, so yeah, we're privileged enough that race doesn't have to make a damned bit of difference to us one way or the other. On the other hand, there's a lot of black people who have felt disadvantaged as a result of their race - probably because their race has actually caused them to be disadvantaged - and to those people, a black Captain America will likely mean a lot. To the women who face sexual harassment, a female Thor is probably a pretty powerful symbol. Greg Pak's Asian-American, but he's talked about how much Storm meant to him as a kid, because he related to the fact that she wasn't white. That she was an Other who was strong and powerful and dominant. It made him feel that he, as an Other, could be the same.

Those of us who get to see ourselves everywhere we look should never underestimate just how powerful it can be for others to see themselves. Whether it's a woman, or a black guy, or a gay person, there's all sorts of stories out there of people talking about how much it means to them to see themselves on the screen or on the page. Hell, even I still get excited seeing Canadians in comics. I bought the Nelvana of the Norther Lights book specifically because she was Canada's first national superhero. The latest issue of Ms. Marvel made me ridiculously happy when it revealed that Kamala buys Pony comics - she's a brony like me! I'm a straight white male, the best-represented group in Western fiction, and even I get happy when I see characters who are like me in less common ways.

What? First off, Falcon and Cage both appeared after segregation had ended. Secondly, this is ridiculous that because x character was originally conceived during y time, that somehow you need to punish other books rather than modernize the character on their own terms and merits.

Yes, they did both appear after segregation. And I'm doubtful either of them could carry a solo title for very long at this point. The books that sell are the ones created in the '60s. That was the point I was making. The only characters that anyone is interested in are the ones created in the '60s, when segregation was still going on.

And you just said that these minority books never sell, then you said it's necessary for Marvel's survival. Seems contradictory to me. To "adapt" to a more "diverse" world, why can't Marvel just heavily promote Falcon and Valkyrie instead of changing other characters?

I fail to see the contradiction. Right now, minority titles don't sell well. For Marvel to succeed, they need to expand their audience. They need to reach out beyond the traditional comic book reader, and get other people interested. That means women and minorities. And Marvel's publishing arm can promote Falcon and Valkyrie all they want, the readers will remain unwilling to buy their books. And in fact, Marvel is promoting Falcon - letting him be Captain America for a little while is doing just that.

Not really, the movies will ensure comics aren't going anywhere for a while. And shrinking comic readership in general has nothing to do with race/gender but rather changes in technology and entertainment and the lingering legacy of the 90's crash. There's nothing to indicate that comic companies risk going out of business because of attitudes by black people and women.

The movies aren't driving up the sales of comics. Specific comics may do better when a movie rolls around, but comics as a whole aren't seeing any particular boost. It's a niche medium that's getting smaller all the time. Without some major, major changes in the comic industry, I'd be genuinely shocked if Marvel and DC are still publishing comics in 50 years. I think pricing is one of the things they need to change, but I also think that reaching out to a broader audience is also key. They need to get people who aren't traditional comic readers to check them out.

[Lax]

And there lies the problem thinking in this thread. No one was taken away, they all still exist in some form in the MU. None were killed off to be replaced.

It's not "problem thinking" it's the truth, the established characters are being replaced by others in the name of "diversity". That's practically how Marvel's been advertising it.

Saying "no one was taken away" like nothing happened is being disingenuous. Megan Fox played as Shia LaBeouf's hot girlfriend in the first two Transformers Movies, but was replaced in the third. The new actress, Rosie Huntington-Whiteley, served the same role of "Shia LaBeouf's hot girlfriend" but was an obvious replacement for Fox within the movie.

If you've been a huge fan of Megan Fox from the start and are now going to lose her primarily, if not solely, because there's a mandate for "more blondes" from on high, you have every right to complain, even if her replacement is another smokin hot chick.

But as I said, my favorites weren't hit by this, so I lucked out.

Was Bruce Wayne taken away from us to do Batman Beyond? No his role was just changed.

Batman Beyond may as well have been an alternate universe.

I didn't care for Nightwing replacing Batman, just have him continue helping Gotham as Nightwing.

[aja_christopher]

The latest issue of Ms. Marvel made me ridiculously happy when it revealed that Kamala buys Pony comics - she's a brony like me! I'm a straight white male, the best-represented group in Western fiction, and even I get happy when I see characters who are like me in less common ways.

Right on -- this kind of stuff brings us together far more than it divides us.

pon3.jpg

Colossus (and Illyana) helped change my attitudes about Russians, Nightcrawler made me think differently about Germans, Danielle Moonstar gave me a new perspective on Native Americans, Sunspot opened my mind up regarding Brazilians, Cannonball helped me appreciate small-town midwestern values, Magneto revealed to me the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust, and Kamala is teaching me more about Muslims than any history book I read in school.

Diversity is about a lot more than just an "agenda" -- it enlightens and broadens the horizons of those who are willing to embrace it as being more than just a "publicity stunt".

[Mr MajestiK]

Does . . . does that mean you agree or disagree?

[Tiamatty]

Right on -- this kind of stuff brings us together far more than it divides us.

pon3.jpg

Colossus (and Illyana) helped change my attitudes about Russians, Nightcrawler made me think differently about Germans, Danielle Moonstar gave me a new perspective on Native Americans, Sunspot opened my mind up regarding Brazilians, Cannonball helped me appreciate small-town midwestern values, and Kamala is teaching me more about Muslims than any history book I read in school.

Diversity is about a lot more than just an "agenda" -- it enlightens and broadens the horizons of those who are willing to embrace it as being more than just a "publicity stunt".

That, too. I love a lot of diverse characters, because it's so interesting to me, seeing how people differ and the similarities they share. And honestly, as a straight white male . . . I'm kinda tired of seeing myself everywhere I look. Every movie, every novel, every comic, every video game - I am frigging everywhere. And let's be honest here, I'm just not that interesting. I want to see other people. I want to see blacks and Latinos and Asians. I want to see gays and lesbians and trans* people. I want to see people who are overweight and bipolar and amputees.

On the other hand, I do belong to one group that I find offensively underrepresented: Broke people. The poor. Right now, I'm on welfare. When was the last time you saw a comic character on welfare? Right now, I can think of exactly one Marvel title about a character who's flat-out broke, and that's All-New Ghost Rider. Other than that, none of Marvel's characters struggle with money. Peter frigging Parker runs his own company. And he's supposed to be "the Everyman." I was unaware the Everyman was so well-off.

[aja_christopher]

That, too. I love a lot of diverse characters, because it's so interesting to me, seeing how people differ and the similarities they share. And honestly, as a straight white male . . . I'm kinda tired of seeing myself everywhere I look. Every movie, every novel, every comic, every video game - I am frigging everywhere. And let's be honest here, I'm just not that interesting. I want to see other people. I want to see blacks and Latinos and Asians. I want to see gays and lesbians and trans* people. I want to see people who are overweight and bipolar and amputees.

On the other hand, I do belong to one group that I find offensively underrepresented: Broke people. The poor. Right now, I'm on welfare. When was the last time you saw a comic character on welfare? Right now, I can think of exactly one Marvel title about a character who's flat-out broke, and that's All-New Ghost Rider. Other than that, none of Marvel's characters struggle with money. Peter frigging Parker runs his own company. And he's supposed to be "the Everyman." I was unaware the Everyman was so well-off.

That's a good point, and it's also one of the reasons I'd like to see more Latino, Asian, LGBT, Muslim, and other types of characters out there in popular media. Not that "black" people have "made it" with regards to representation but we do have a lot of individuals who are very public and very successful in the fields of entertainment, sports, politics, etc -- part of the reason I made my main character Vietnamese-American (and the co-leaders of the team female and mixed-race "Hispanic" and "Native" respectively) is because I'm more interested in seeing something new than retreading the same old ground.

Come to think of it, I have to wonder what Franco-Brasilian (Rio) and Mayan (Salem) would be considered, racially speaking, which is a good thing in my opinion.

With regards to Parker, it makes sense that someone that smart and talented wouldn't be poor forever, but part of his appeal was those money issues... having to deal with J. Jonah to get that cash flow and make sure that Aunt May kept the lights on at the house once Ben passed away. You're right about that -- there aren't too many high profile characters at Marvel struggling with funds. Quite they contrary, they tend to be either part of the 1% or at the very least have access to money (and technology) as needed.

I still remember having the first comic book character I wrote bagging groceries and sleeping at hostels -- he wasn't poor so much as just in an unfamiliar era (time-traveler from the future). I doubt I would have identified with him half as much if he were rich and drove a Batmobile or flew a Blackbird jet out to fight crime.

You might want to check out the Runaways older books if you haven't already -- they were basically broke kids hiding out wherever they could find shelter. I think Cloak and Dagger had the same kinds of problems as well but you don't see much of them anymore, either.

[Ajala]

It's not "problem thinking" it's the truth, the established characters are being replaced by others in the name of "diversity". That's practically how Marvel's been advertising it.

Wait. Where did they say that Sam is actually being replaced "in the name of diversity"? The article that I read on Marvel's site, where Brevoort was quoted mentions Sam's skills, connection with the people, and his history with Cap as the reasoning behind the change.

[Nanteen]

so pretty much the editorial staff sat down and it went something like this "Hey guys the movies are doing well, everyone is looking at us. There has been a few mentions that all our heroes are white. Should we do something? I don't know maybe we can develop some new characters with rich backgrounds and a stellar line up of bad guys. All the heroes can be black, latino, Asian, Gay, females. What do you say?"


Rest of the boards. "DER DAT IS HARD I KNOW LETS JUST CHANGE UP THE HEROES WE ALREADY HAVE INTO MINORITIES WE'LL GET GOOD PRESS, AND IN A YEAR WHEN EVERYONE LOSES INTEREST WE CAN CHANGE BACK!"

[aja_christopher]

so pretty much the editorial staff sat down and it went something like this "Hey guys the movies are doing well, everyone is looking at us. There has been a few mentions that all our heroes are white. Should we do something? I don't know maybe we can develop some new characters with rich backgrounds and a stellar line up of bad guys. All the heroes can be black, latino, Asian, Gay, females. What do you say?"


Rest of the boards. "DER DAT IS HARD I KNOW LETS JUST CHANGE UP THE HEROES WE ALREADY HAVE INTO MINORITIES WE'LL GET GOOD PRESS, AND IN A YEAR WHEN EVERYONE LOSES INTEREST WE CAN CHANGE BACK!"

I didn't know there were so many people posting here that worked at Marvel -- glad to get the inside scoop on the "quota" conversation from an insider.

Likewise, I didn't know that all the heroes were "non-white guys" now -- guess all those Marvel books starring white guys that I saw at the comic book store last week were just figments of my overactive imagination.

[prismablue]

What I would like to see is for marvel to get their main brands back to their core appeal. Captain America doesn't have to be white but imo he shouldn't be an existing character putting on the uniform.The falcon is a different character. different motivations.

Rather than playing musical chairs with existing characters ethnicity I would love to see marvel ditch the b-f level characters and have writers and artists create NEW ethnically diverse superhero books. NEW characters. Cancel books that aren't working and characters that have become outdated or were never really any good to begin with and make new ones.