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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by just another user View Post
    Anyone online who is complaining that straight white men are losing out to minorities - no matter how you try to justify it, that it goes against canon, that it's a short term gimmick, that you don't really mind but you're just playing devils advocate - it's not a good look.
    This. All the complaints that are basically "I don't mind diversity but this seems like a cheap stunt from Marvel!" are statements from people who DO have a problem with diversity but just want to cloak their dislike of it in something else. You know, "Oh, I would be all for this but this just isn't the right way to do it!"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Who is "we minorities"? Are you presuming to speak for a global population of over a few billion people?

    If you don't see the value of diversity -- for whatever reason -- in comics or anywhere else for that matter, that is your choice to make of course. But you shouldn't assume that your opinion is representative of the "minority" point of view just because you might be one of a few billion "minorities" on this planet.

    Personally, I don't see comics like Ms. Marvel, the (all female) X-Men, and Spiderman 2099 as being "pandered" to -- I just see them as good comics.
    You said it better than I did!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Who is "we minorities"? Are you presuming to speak for a global population of over a few billion people?
    Except when we talk about minorities, we are generally referring to the present demographics of people in the United States or Western europe. Also everybody is a minority somewhere on a macro scale.


    If you don't see the value of diversity -- for whatever reason -- in comics or anywhere else for that matter, that is your choice to make of course.
    I like diversity. I like it even better when it makes sense. I don't like diversity for diversity's sake. It sends a message that I have to be included in XYZ because of the fact I am of skin color X instead being included because I am a human being that has inherent value and worth.


    But you shouldn't assume that your opinion is representative of the "minority" point of view just because you might be one of a few billion "minorities" on this planet.
    I don't speak for ther minorities, I'm just giving you my reason as to why this particular minority thinks it sucks.

    I don't see comics like Ms. Marvel, the (all female) X-Men, and Spiderman 2099 as being "pandered" to -- I just see them as good comics.
    Riiight.

  4. #34
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    I am a white, straight male. My demographic is represented everywhere.
    I would have to be a real privileged asshole to care about a temporary change like this, or Falcon taking the Captain America mantle.

  5. #35
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    Although it's a nice sentiment, it's not going to change much. Sooner or later, Falcon will become Falcon again and Steve Rogers will be Captain America, and Thor will be Thor. What Marvel's doing makes headlines and guarantees a few more sales, but they're not changing the status quo for long, so they're not changing anything at all. It's good that they're trying to make a difference, even if it's a small one. However, if they really want to be friendly to all minorities, they won't "replace" well-known characters with other well-known characters, they'd bring the the minorities forward and push them as the new holy trinity.

    Falcon could have easily replaced Captain America and remained Falcon, but Marvel would have had to make a huge push in marketing to guarantee the popularity the book would get as if he was Captain America, so in the end, a lot of this feels like a marketing ploy.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    Except your blithely ignoring that the comic itself is sinking like a stone pretty fast in terms of the amounts of units sold since the first issue. Issue 1 debuted at what 24th place? At over 50,000 units? In March 41st, with what 38,000 units. And by June it's barely pulling in 30,000 units.

    It's barely running even with Fantastic Four and it looks like the Fantastic Four is on the verge of cancellation.
    I think you would be best served not talking about direct market sales until you develop a stronger understanding of direct market sales.

    I challenge you to look at the first 2 issues of every Marvel book that was launched since Marvel NOW and tell me what the percentage difference is between the two.

    After you've done that, take a look at all of the books that launched aside Ms Marvel with long-established Marvel characters and tell me how they're selling comparatively.

    Third, compare the difference in sales between May and June, and honestly say you understand what it means for a book to sink like a stone.

    Fourth, take a look at all of the established characters that actually sit below Ms. Marvel on the charts (including Captain Marvel).

    Fifth, the only reason Fantastic Four MAY be in any threat of cancellation is because it's a consistently underperforming pillar franchise. FF is supposed to be the fourth leg of the Marvel Universe next to the X-Men, Avengers and Spider-man

    Ms. Marvel at 33K at issue 5 in the direct market (not counting digital sales where the book routinely sits near the top of the charts on the week of release) is by no means a failure anyway you look at it.

    Is it as successful as say Harley Quinn? Not in the least, but Harley Quinn has well over a decade of cross-media exposure and promotion compared to Ms. Marvel who's had about 8 months including the announcement window pre-release.
    Last edited by Ceebiro; 07-17-2014 at 04:45 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by One View Post
    Although it's a nice sentiment, it's not going to change much. Sooner or later, Falcon will become Falcon again and Steve Rogers will be Captain America, and Thor will be Thor. What Marvel's doing makes headlines and guarantees a few more sales, but they're not changing the status quo for long, so they're not changing anything at all. It's good that they're trying to make a difference, even if it's a small one. However, if they really want to be friendly to all minorities, they won't "replace" well-known characters with other well-known characters, they'd bring the the minorities forward and push them as the new holy trinity.

    Falcon could have easily replaced Captain America and remained Falcon, but Marvel would have had to make a huge push in marketing to guarantee the popularity the book would get as if he was Captain America, so in the end, a lot of this feels like a marketing ploy.
    I actually think Marvel would have been able to make a Falcon book that sells at least as well as Remender's Captain America if they had paired Immonen with Al Ewing.

    Remender is a rather divisive writer among readers. People either love him or hate him. Ewing on the other hand is universally praised by the majority of readers of his books. Yes he hits a smaller market, but an artist of Immonen's caliber may have been enough to really open the playing field for both Ewing and Falcon.

    I agree with everything else you're saying there. It is a nice sentiment, but it would be better to get some lasting changes. It may be too much to wish that these new books are successful and Marvel Comics does not feel too inclined to fall in line with Marvel Studios films for some imaginary new reader that's not going to create a notable shift in monthly sales.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post

    I like diversity. I like it even better when it makes sense. I don't like diversity for diversity's sake. It sends a message that I have to be included in XYZ because of the fact I am of skin color X instead being included because I am a human being that has inherent value and worth.
    How would you know that any of these stories is diversity for diversity's sake when the books haven't even been released?

    That they're short term changes doesn't mean much.

    I mean when Dick Grayson became Batman, everyone knew that Bruce would be back, but people still accepted it and the majority of people that did enjoyed the stories for what they were - quality entertainment.

    The same can be said for Superior Spider-man. People wailed and gnashed their teeth when that was announced or rolled their eyes because they knew that Peter Parker was the one true Spider-man. Some people had only given that book 12 issues until Peter returned. Doc Ock stayed for over 30 issues and it was consistently one of Marvel's top-selling books.

    What's stopping these books from being well-received quality stories? It can't just be because they're minority leads, right?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    I am a white, straight male. My demographic is represented everywhere.
    I would have to be a real privileged asshole to care about a temporary change like this, or Falcon taking the Captain America mantle.
    It's good to see that out in the open.

    I'm black, but one of my favorite characters is Iron Fist, who I like reading about more than Luke Cage, and I enjoy reading about Kamala Khan (Ms. Marvel) more than both of these characters, and Karolina (from the Runaways) more than all of the above.

    Why should it matter if one is white, one is black, one is muslim, and one is a lesbian so long as all are good characters to write about? Each addresses a different perspective regarding being a "superhero" regardless of their race, gender, sexuality, religion, age, etc, and I'm glad to have many different options to choose from when I visit the local comic book shop.

    Reading a story about people "just like me" all the time would quickly grow boring and I wouldn't learn very much in the process. The more "diversity" the better in my opinion -- comic books have always been at the cutting edge of culture anyway and this just continues the tradition.

  10. #40
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    "Quick! Let's piss off our dedicated reader base for our most popular characters!"

    "We changed things...again! Are you still interested?"

    "No? Ok...um...we'll replace Steve Rogers AGAIN. This time, with something 'new' and 'shocking'!"

    "Still not interested...uh...we'll make Thor a woman! Sure, we already already replaced him several times, but here it is again! Interested now?"

    "No? Damn...I wish we would have seen this coming. New movie coming out...time to bring back the characters that people were actually interested in."

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    This comes at a cost of pushing a Falcon solo-work or actually pushing Thor's other female legacy characters, like Sif or Valkyrie. Furthermore, this is just diversity for divirsity's sake. I don't like being pandered too, especially when the pandering makes less sense than a typical Swerve on an episode of WCW's Monday Nitro during the late 1990's. Hell, the finger poke of doom makes more sense than the dreck that marvel is publishing.
    Exactly. Sam deserves his own book, not to be Captain America for what, two years if that. If Deathlok can have his own book in character, why can't Falcon? Especially with all the Falcon love on the internets as a result of CATWS, wouldn't you want to push that exact character rather give him a temporary role boost?

    I have no problem with diversity when it's done right, when it's not forced. This smells like PR ruse all the way from L.A.
    archer * magician *soldier * spy

  12. #42
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    The Times are actually briefing readers today about Thor becoming a woman for a while.

    I think the funniest part went something* like (*apologies but can't be arsed to go into other room to get my copy and quote it exactly):-

    "The character won't be called Thora, probably to avoid confusion with Thora Hird".

    It made me laugh because I'm pretty sure most marvel readers won't have the foggiest idea who Thora Hird was. (NB Wonderful character actress from blessed Lancashire. Few people less likely to hit anybody with a hammer, so maybe it was most likely a joke based on how gentle she was.)

  13. #43
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    I think the Thor and Cap change make sense, and aren't all that shocking or surprising at all. Loki was just a woman a few years back--doesn't surprise me that they'll try it again with Thor. As for Falcon, this makes perfect sense. He's been a longtime supporting character to Steve Rogers, and he was VERY popular in the movie that just came out. It makes total sense that he'd have his chance.

    Characters change mantles all the time. This is comics--we know it's all temporary. EVERYTHING is temporary. But I didn't hear these types of complaints the last time someone else replaced Steve Rogers.

    I don't know all the references in the first post, but hasn't Storm had solo titles before this? She's frequently billed as one of the most popular Marvel female characters. She has crazy amounts of recognition in other media as well. Why is it "pandering" for her to get a solo title? She's ****ing badass, haha.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by responsarbre View Post
    The thing to remember in all this: when other stuff is getting announced all the time that stars white dudes, none of you feel like it's "pandering." Readers who aren't white dudes, though, they notice that. It's what happens in a community like this where one specific type of person is the "default."
    Exactly.

    And there are still plenty of white dudes in the comics. It's not like there's a hope in hell of female and non-white characters outnumbering them.

  15. #45
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    [QUOTE=Ceebiro;314244]
    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post

    You have not made a single objective point.
    and yours were objective how?
    Why is the use of minority replacements considered pandering when the use of white replacements not?
    Because in this instance the minority characters after a sufficient amount of time are being replaced by white characters. There is no permanence to any of the usages of the minority characters other than to be used as fill-ins.

    And how is it bait and switch when the majority of readers know that it won't stick?
    Because marvel isn't aiming this at a majority of readers. You don't make this much of publicity if you aren't aiming this at newer readership. The whole idea is to bring women and minority readers and after that has been accomplished the minority and women characters will be replaced right back.

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