Page 5 of 59 FirstFirst 1234567891555 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 873
  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    It's pandering because the replacements don't make sense in context and other minority characters who would have a better claim to the mantle of thier mentors are being pushed aside. Which is hilarious considering the fact the same people supporting this move marvel is taking are making up excuses as to why Sif and Valkyrie shouldn't be the ones to take up the mantle of Mjolnir.
    Sam makes sense as Steve's replacement -- Captain America is about an "ideal", not a set of powers (or a skin color).

    Miles Morales and Kamala Khan (and Sam and Rhodey and She-Hulk and X-23 and Captain Marvel and the new "Thor", etc, etc, etc) are not "pushing" anyone aside. They were usually inspired by the "original" heroes to take on a superhero persona in their honor and -- more importantly -- the original characters are often left intact in their own separate series or return to the series after a short (and often beneficial) hiatus.

    What you seem to be fighting against is more about principle than anything really tangible, especially given your criticism of my opinion regarding titles like "Ms. Marvel" and "Spiderman 2099" being good comic books that are worth reading, dismissing them instead as just "pandering" regardless of their content.

    Again, if you don't like these books (or said "diversity") that is fine but it really makes no sense to criticize those of us that do for having our own opinion on on the matter; no one is forcing you to buy these books any more than anyone is forcing me to buy the 3 or 4 "original" Spiderman titles over one about Miles Morales.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 07-17-2014 at 06:43 AM.

  2. #62
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    In regards to Sam becoming Cap for a limited time.....

    No offense but several people who are "taking issue" or that are " put off" by the idea of Sam holding the title for a short time are some of the people who would never pick up a book staring the Falcon in the first place. Sure Sam becoming Cap might be a gimmick but so what? Sam taking the mantel of Cap for a short time might give the character the chance to seen without the excess negative baggage associated with surface level aspects of the character.

    If Sam is handled well as Cap I can easily see this as an oppertunity to really give him a fresh chance to shine when he returns as the Falcon. So again so what if this is a gimmick for "diversity" to " drive sales until the movie hits" or whatever other reason.
    If it helps Sam or any other long standing character I'm for it and honestly in cases were long standing barely noticed characters I'm not sure why more fans aren't more accepting of it? It's not like a character died or was mistreated for Sam to hold reigns for a bit. If it had I can totally see the justification for the small negativity. Gods knows I had my fair share of rants about a certain character always being prompted on the degrading of other characters.

  3. #63
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    7,567

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    Except your blithely ignoring that the comic itself is sinking like a stone pretty fast in terms of the amounts of units sold since the first issue. Issue 1 debuted at what 24th place? At over 50,000 units? In March 41st, with what 38,000 units. And by June it's barely pulling in 30,000 units.

    It's barely running even with Fantastic Four and it looks like the Fantastic Four is on the verge of cancellation.
    And this stops it making over a 1 million a year... because...? Whether it was making 2 million and will now only make 1 million still means it's a huge success, considering how much to costs to make (i.e. it's doubling it's costs in profit = that's a success, in anybodies book).

  4. #64
    Rookie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Sam makes sense as Steve's replacement -- Captain America is about an "ideal", not a set of powers (or a skin color).
    Except even here's a better argument for Luke Cage's replacing Steve.

    Miles Morales and Kamala Khan (and Sam and Rhodey and She-Hulk, and Captain Marvel, the new "Thor", etc, etc, etc) are not "pushing" anyone aside.
    Not pushing anybody aside? I don't call inventing a character out of whole cloth while spurning already established characters from getting a shot a leading their own book "not pushing anybody aside". What I see is simply just an excuse to jump on this bandwagon without actually putting any critical thought before jumping on this bandwagon.

    They were usually inspired by their heroes to take on a superhero persona in their honor and -- more importantly -- the original characters are often left intact in their own separate series' or return to the series after a short (and often beneficial) hiatus.
    yeah and? In many cases those transitions made sense. In the case of Sam and this new "Thor" not only does it not make make sense, it's pissing over established characters should have a better claim to said mantle and I'm calling bullshit. How long do we have to wait before Marvel gives TV publicity to Sif or Valkyrie like they did for this supposed "thor"?

    What you seem to be fighting against is more about principle than anything really tangible, especially given your criticism of my opinion regarding titles like "Ms. Marvel" and "Spiderman 2099" being good comic books that are worth reading.
    I'll be frank. I don't give a shit about optics. All I care about are 1) do the choices in question make sense and 2) are those stories something I want to read.
    Again, if you don't like these books (or said "diversity") that is fine but it really makes no sense to criticize those of us that do for having our own opinion on on the matter; no one is forcing you to buy these books any more than anyone is forcing me to buy the 3 or 4 "original" Spiderman titles over one about Miles Morales.
    Meaning "I don't actually have any counter arguments to present but I totally wouldn't use this when somebody of sociological position I like makes a criticism of a direction that marvel or DC take"

    Which is why most likely, aside from maybe 1 or 2 ongoing titles from marvel, am moving on to DC.
    Last edited by empsolo; 07-17-2014 at 07:10 AM.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,356

    Default

    I don't really care about the Thor and Cap changes, they won't last long and comics shakes things up all the time sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I don't know why the new Storm solo was also mentioned by the OP, that book has been long overdue and is not pandering to minorities at all.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    yeah and? In many cases those transitions made sense. In the case of Sam and this new "Thor" not only does it not make make sense, it's pissing over established characters should have a better claim to said mantle and I'm calling bullshit. How long do we have to wait before Marvel gives TV publicity to Sif or Valkyrie like they did for this supposed "thor"?

    I'll be frank. I don't give a shit about optics. All I care about are 1) do the choices in question make sense and 2) are those stories something I want to read.

    Which is why most likely, aside from maybe 1 or 2 ongoing titles from marvel, am moving on to DC.
    I disagree -- Sam is a good replacement for Steve given their history (much better than Cage in that respect) and I fail to see how anyone can even judge the new "Thor" when the story hasn't even come out yet, nor has the character even been revealed.

    So again, more power to you for standing up for your principles -- even if that means a switch over to DC -- but, ultimately, if you'd prefer to just label titles like "Ms. Marvel" and "Spiderman 2099" as "diversity pandering" rather than actually reading them and giving them a chance then that's your loss because you are missing out on some great books.

    Of course, if you are fine with that then so am I. Best wishes and enjoy your New 52 (and I say that with all sincerity as someone who "jumped" over to Vertigo back when I was dissatisfied with Marvel quite a few years ago).
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 07-17-2014 at 07:19 AM.

  7. #67
    Rookie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    In regards to Sam becoming Cap for a limited time.....

    No offense but several people who are "taking issue" or that are " put off" by the idea of Sam holding the title for a short time are some of the people who would never pick up a book staring the Falcon in the first place. Sure Sam becoming Cap might be a gimmick but so what? Sam taking the mantel of Cap for a short time might give the character the chance to seen without the excess negative baggage associated with surface level aspects of the character.

    If Sam is handled well as Cap I can easily see this as an oppertunity to really give him a fresh chance to shine when he returns as the Falcon. So again so what if this is a gimmick for "diversity" to " drive sales until the movie hits" or whatever other reason.
    If it helps Sam or any other long standing character I'm for it and honestly in cases were long standing barely noticed characters I'm not sure why more fans aren't more accepting of it? It's not like a character died or was mistreated for Sam to hold reigns for a bit. If it had I can totally see the justification for the small negativity. Gods knows I had my fair share of rants about a certain character always being prompted on the degrading of other characters.
    This is a pretty bold assertion to make. Considering that out of the 1 or 2 titles I end up keeping with marvel will most likely be the New captain America as well as Uncanny Avengers. It's pretty presumptuous to make this assertion.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Spider-Tron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    539

    Default

    These changes leave me uninterested in the big three. I always found falcon horribly boring. Lady Thor: don't even know who the character is so I cna't be excited about that yet. Wish it were someone like Sif. taking the mantel. Always loved Thor's personality so i'm a little bummed about him leaving. Iron man: couldn't care less as I dont' know who the new character is and never loved tony stark that much


    side note: cap falcon's costume is really bad. as is new iron man.

    lost interest in most marvel books when they made the "superior spider-man". started reading again recently. now they're gonna have all of these imitation characters in the main team books. i've lost interest again. probably gonna be sticking to non team books they won't be guest starring in.

  9. #69
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    This is a pretty bold assertion to make. Considering that out of the 1 or 2 titles I end up keeping with marvel will most likely be the New captain America as well as Uncanny Avengers. It's pretty presumptuous to make this assertion.
    I did say SOME not all. There are several Cap fans who are still reading the title and will support Sam in whatever endeavors he pursues. However, there many who are scoffing at the idea who would never read the character as Falcon or Cap.

    Those are the people I'm more so referring to.

  10. #70
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I disagree -- Sam is a good replacement for Steve given their history (much better than Cage in that respect) and I fail to see how anyone can even judge the new "Thor" when the story hasn't even come out yet, nor has the character even been revealed.
    Sam makes PERFECT sense, same as Bucky did when he took over the mantle.
    Steve trusts Sam, and he knew that Bucky NEEDED the push of taking over as Cap to get him back on the right track.
    Plus, shit...it's a Captain America that isn't WHITE. This is big, and long overdue.
    I recently re-read 'Truth: Red, White and Black', and when they did the announcement, I just smiled; I had a feeling some fans would react like the 'Merrick' character from the book.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saucemaster View Post
    I'm not bothered when I see women or people who aren't white. The people who complain that a black man or a woman are getting a high profile are the people I don't want to be around. I'm glad that Marvel is ignoring their complaints.
    Uh, I don't think anyone who is upset with these changes is racist though. They're just upset their favorite characters are being replaced, and they know it's because of a drive for diversity. Doesn't mean they're against the underlying drive for diversity, just the result of it, ie. losing a favorite character.

  12. #72
    Were You There? Michael P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Location, Location!
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    A rodent that you can't call a rodent became an insatiable womanizer
    Not sure where the "PC" part comes in here.

    And, as I recently learned, raccoons are procyonids.
    "It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether I win or lose." - Peter David, on life

    "If you can't say anything nice about someone, sit right here by me." - Alice Roosevelt Longworth, on manners

    "You're much stronger than you think you are." - Superman, on humankind


    All-New, All-Different Marvel Checklist

  13. #73
    Looking for The Massive afrocarter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by empsolo View Post
    It's not a win-win. In the case of Thor, a new character is coming to temporarily replace Thor when It logically could have gone to say, Sif, Valkyrie, any one of the Warriors Three. In Thor's case established characters are being shat all over in order to make room for this new one. A character we have no knowledge of her back story or what makes her a hero. Or why she is more worthy than the others.
    We don't even know who the woman is yet, so you can't even assume that she isn't as worthy as Sif, Valkyrie, etc. You're judging a character & story you know absolutely nothing about.

  14. #74
    Rookie Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by afrocarter View Post
    We don't even know who the woman is yet, so you can't even assume that she isn't as worthy as Sif, Valkyrie, etc. You're judging a character & story you know absolutely nothing about.
    Because Aaron's quote pretty much says "it's a new character but somebody who has ties with Thor". And I don't care if she is worthy or not. What you are doing is casting aside female characters who are just as good as Thor further into the background.
    Last edited by Joe Acro; 07-17-2014 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Language

  15. #75
    Overly Opinionated Conway's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    972

    Default

    Okay, I was aware some people get easily offended, and anything said against a "minority" is automatically racist/sexist so I'm not surprised by a lot of responses. Still most of this is pandering, and a lot of people respond negatively to pandering.

    The reason I put "minority" in quotes is that I recognize that on the whole on this planet Caucasian males are a minority, and that females make up 50% of the population of the planet.

    Storm earned her book. She is established and recognizable. If I was interested in the character I would buy it. I thought it was a good idea that was a long time overdue... until the rest of the announcements this month.

    The Thor announcement was mad on that classic forum for releasing comic book news... The View. You can't tell me that isn't pandering to females. The Cap announcement was made on The Colbert Show, while he has a long running relationship with Marvel you can't tell me that isn't pandering to a younger PC crowd. Since both of these changes are obviously temporary, it makes it even more of a forced attempt to make themselves look like they have more minorities.

    To the person that was kind enough to enlighten me about Kamala Kahn's ancestry I thank you, but you'd be hard pressed to find many Americans that could tell you the difference between Persian and Middle Eastern. I think that linking her to Wolverine is an attempt to make sales (what else should a company do), and the Inhuman angle makes her even more of a minority push.

    Nobody can defend making the offspring of Wade Wilson and a Latino into an adorable black girl.

    Pushing out an established and important character like Nick Fury for a black character based on something the movie universe did for diversity's sake is a little forced. I'm not sure how I feel about the character yet, sometimes I view him as Shaft (A bad mother-spy) other times it's Nick Jr. (Children's spy).

    As for Bucky even with PTSD and POW status I can't really call him a "minority". That's like calling John McCain a "minority". I love the character and will buy the story anyway.

    All of this comes a couple months after I started seeing more complaints about a "lack of Diversity". It's pandering. To call someone racist/sexist for drawing attention that a company is making a point of showing how "diverse" they are after being called out for not being diverse they are being disingenuous, is being overly sensitive. I wasn't calling for these things to stop or be changed, or that I didn't like them, I simply called them pandering, and that it reeked of trying too hard.
    It's all just an opinion. Stop taking me so damn seriously.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •