Is Marvel's "Minority"/PC Month trying too hard?

[Thursaiz]

The whole thing is incredibly lame, lazy, and unnecessary. Give us new or minor characters that illustrate 'minority' characters can achieve success without hijacking other titles. Some examples:
- the movies show Heimdall is a black dude, played by one of the greatest actors of his generation. Run with it.
- Hogun the Grim is Asian. He is a bad-ass who I would love to read about. Run with it.
- If Falcon is such an interesting character, make a solo book successful. Doubt it can happen, but give it a shot.
- Considering most Marvel heroes are Americans, make Alpha Flight, MI:13 or Excalibur actually WORK. They are fantastic characters on teams with minorities. Take the ball and run with it!

Stop changing iconic characters to try and sell books. It doesn't have any longevity, and never has. Iron Patriot is proof of that.

[aja_christopher]

The whole thing is incredibly lame, lazy, and unnecessary. Give us new or minor characters that illustrate 'minority' characters can achieve success without hijacking other titles. Some examples:
- the movies show Heimdall is a black dude, played by one of the greatest actors of his generation. Run with it.
- Hogun the Grim is Asian. He is a bad-ass who I would love to read about. Run with it.
- If Falcon is such an interesting character, make a solo book successful. Doubt it can happen, but give it a shot.
- Considering most Marvel heroes are Americans, make Alpha Flight, MI:13 or Excalibur actually WORK. They are fantastic characters on teams with minorities. Take the ball and run with it!

Stop changing iconic characters to try and sell books. It doesn't have any longevity, and never has. Iron Patriot is proof of that.

And Miles Morales and Kamala Khan are proof that it can work... not to mention Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, Nick Fury, and many other characters who have replaced or "spun-off" from "iconic" characters in the past and done well for themselves in the process.

Focusing on the books that "fail" while ignoring the ones that are successful is -- again -- selective ignorance.

Like Breevort already pointed out in his response to this criticism, there is no reason why they can't both give original characters a shot (Storm, Elektra, Black Widow) and put a new twist on older "iconic" characters and titles that could use a new spin (Superior Spiderman, Ultimate Spiderman, all-female X-Men, etc).

This kind of thing has been done plenty of times before with "white guys" replacing (or mimicking) other white guys -- the million dollar question still remains unanswered: why is "race" and "gender" suddenly problematic when "race" and "gender" were never such a big issue when it was only "white guys" involved in these changes?

And more importantly (to me at least) why isn't the discussion about the lack of diverse writers at these companies getting as much attention as the "controversy" over a few "minority" characters who are engaged in (allegedly) temporary changes, at best?

[aja_christopher]

I agree that I should have expected more racial comments and part of me was probably being controlled by some inner troll when I created this thread. I provided a platform for people that really didn't need another platform to spout their idiotic vitriol. For that I apologize.

I'm glad you understand why this is important -- and for the record I don't disagree with you about some of the points that you made regarding Marvel marketing some of these characters on the basis of race (Miles) or gender (Thor) to a certain degree: I just don't agree that it was all that Marvel focused on, even initially.

The difference being that where you might see the focus on race or gender as a negative, many others might see it as a positive and investigate -- and potentially support -- these titles on said basis simply because they have been waiting to see more well-written and well-illustrated "black" or "female" or "Muslim" characters in the spotlight for generations.

Again -- maybe you can't identify with this because you've never NOT been "pandered" to by the popular media, but for those of us who have always been considered the "other" in the past, this is a pretty big deal.

[PwrdOn]

Marvel is too quick to pat themselves on the back over Ms. Marvel, if you take all six printings of the #1 issue you still only end up with about 65k copies total, which is not bad I guess but hardly a massive hit. And it wouldn't have had to go back for some many printings if Marvel had shown more confidence in the title's ability to sell in the first place. Granted, it's doing quite well compared to Marvel's other female led offerings, but that's not exactly a high standard of comparison.

[Pyrebomb]

The Colbert Report is a political satire show. Of course it's going to focus a great deal on America and American politics.

As for the view, yes they went on that show to promote the new character to a female audience. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It'd be outright stupid for them NOT to do that.

If you misunderstood my comment about Colbert and America that badly, I wonder if you have ever watched a single episode and are even qualified to talk about what he focuses on or who his audience is.

And honestly, the more I think of it? The View spot was incredibly stupid. I'm a woman who reads comics. I have many friends who are also women who read comics. I do not know a single one who watches The View. In fact, when we heard there was going to be a Thor announcement on it, we all cringed, said it wasn't worth the misery, and we'd just read about it later online. There just really is not a lot of overlap between comicbook fans and The View viewers, even limiting it to women.

So my guess would be they wanted to reach out to a potential new audience. How many of them are going to remember that spot on The View that seemed somewhat intriguing an entire three months down the road when they can actually buy the product? Not many, I'd wager. I forget half of what I need at the grocery unless I write it down.

And Miles Morales and Kamala Khan are proof that it can work... not to mention Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, Nick Fury, and many other characters who have replaced or "spun-off" from "iconic" characters in the past and done well for themselves in the process.

Focusing on the books that "fail" while ignoring the ones that are successful is -- again -- selective ignorance.

Like Breevort already pointed out in his response to this criticism, there is no reason why they can't both give original characters a shot (Storm, Elektra, Black Widow) and put a new twist on older "iconic" characters and titles that could use a new spin (Superior Spiderman, Ultimate Spiderman, all-female X-Men, etc).

This kind of thing has been done plenty of times before with "white guys" replacing (or mimicking) other white guys -- the million dollar question still remains unanswered: why is "race" and "gender" suddenly problematic when "race" and "gender" were never such a big issue when it was only "white guys" involved in these changes?

And more importantly (to me at least) why isn't the discussion about the lack of diverse writers at these companies getting as much attention as the "controversy" over a few "minority" characters who are engaged in (allegedly) temporary changes, at best?

With the exception of Miles Morales, none of those successful spin-offs were ever replacements. They were legacy characters, sure, but they worked alongside the hero they were based off of, or at least existed in the same space. There was massive controversy over Miles, and I honestly don't think it would have stuck in 616. Remember when they tried to replace Peter with another white guy? Who had his same genetic material and aside from about six years of memory was, for all intents and purposes, the same dude? People had such a shitfit that they backed off the storyline and killed him off for good measure.

We know these characters have a time-limit because they are stepping in to fill the shoes of the big names while they're supposedly incapable of doing their jobs. And Marvel is not going to sideline Steve and Thor forever. That is precisely why we're talking about race and gender. Because it feels really cheap to say, "Oh, you want more diverse characters? Okay, we'll make Cap a black guy and Thor a woman until Age of Ultron comes out. That's good enough, right?" and make it such a big deal when they could be focusing on diverse characters who are actually going to stick around. And while your statement that they can do both is initially sound, when you look at the remarkably different efforts they put into promoting the former vs. the latter, it is more than a bit depressing.

Also, with Thor, it feels like they're setting her up for failure. Like you said, they already did this with another white dude, and it wasn't a big deal. It was so not a big deal that we all try to forget it happened. Do you ever meet a Thor fan who proceeds to tell you how much they loooooooooove Thunderstrike? Thor fans don't love Thor because he has a hammer. They love him because he is Thor. I could not care less about whomever moonlights with Mjolnir when he isn't using it. I'd rather read about Thor dealing with his sudden Unworthiness. That sounds like an interesting story to me. And I'm sure we'll get a bit of that, but not as much as we could when they're worried about spotlighting this "new" character. So what happens when the book doesn't do well? Do they acknowledge their part in it or do they shrug and point to it as another example of how "female characters just don't sell"?

[aja_christopher]

So what happens when the book doesn't do well? Do they acknowledge their part in it or do they shrug and point to it as another example of how "female characters just don't sell"?

IF the book(s) don't do well (because we shouldn't assume that they won't before they are even published) then so be it -- it won't be the end of the world for "minority" characters any more than the cancellation of Gambit or a Winter Soldier title should be the end of the world for white male-lead titles.

I still say let's just see how it goes before passing judgment.

Granted, it's doing quite well compared to Marvel's other female led offerings, but that's not exactly a high standard of comparison.

It's doing better than most comics in general (male or female-led) so why the need to criticize it for not doing better than titles like Batman or Spiderman -- who have had decades to establish readership?

There's nothing stopping Kamala from being just as popular and successful as either of those characters in the future -- only time will tell.

[aja_christopher]

Edit: Posted to wrong board.

[PwrdOn]

It's doing better than most comics in general (male or female-led) so why the need to criticize it for not doing better than titles like Batman or Spiderman -- who have had decades to establish readership?

There's nothing stopping Kamala from being just as popular and successful as either of those characters in the future -- only time will tell.

You just have to keep it real when it comes to these things, Ms. Marvel ranked 61st in June which I guess isn't terrible but is nothing to write home about either. Yes it is outselling some titles like Captain America and Iron Man but that's because it's only on issue 5, where is it going to be a year or two from now? Marvel obviously has put a lot of effort in promoting the book and has a lot riding on its success, but it's wrong to paint it as some kind of huge hit that is revolutionizing the industry when it clearly isn't, and if this is the absolute best they can possibly do with a female lead book they're going to have a lot of trouble in this area for some time to come.

[aja_christopher]

You just have to keep it real when it comes to these things, Ms. Marvel ranked 61st in June which I guess isn't terrible but is nothing to write home about either. Yes it is outselling some titles like Captain America and Iron Man but that's because it's only on issue 5, where is it going to be a year or two from now?

Why don't you actually wait and see what the answer to that question is instead of criticizing things that haven't even happened yet?

Personally, I think the success or failure of Ms. Marvel will have more to do with the writing and art than her being "female, brown and Muslim" so in that respect at least, I don't see much point in debating whether she is an indicator as to whether Marvel's "female" books will sale.

Next year they could release a completely different "female" book with exactly the same promotion and be even more (or less) successful -- this isn't some "one-shot" situation where everything is dependent on Kamala's sales figures any more than it was for Miles, Remy, or Carol.

[CSTowle]

Edit: Posted to wrong board.

Unnecessary butt-shot thread?

[aja_christopher]

Unnecessary butt-shot thread?

I don't write the links -- i just post them (and include the associated artwork). I actually thought about clipping that image before posting but then decided that censorship is not the answer.

It's actually a good commentary on the fact that these "media outlets" (like Entertainment Weekly) will do whatever it takes to sell a story. I'm sure EW's writers and editors could have found less... naked pictures of Mockingbird to associate with the story but "sex" is probably one of the few things that tops "race" or "gender" when it comes to effective clickbait.

That being said, we should be glad that the pics of the "female Thor" are fully clothed at this point because if Marvel had any pictures of her in a thong, no doubt they'd be the ones we see all over the internet being associated with said character.

[saiths]

i've been wanting to join this conversation for a couple days now and i've only read the last ~10 pages and i don't know, everyone is bothering me.

marvel may want to make money by having characters that aren't white as mayonnaise and if they do it for the money, whatever, i can't change that. the great thing about marvel and minorities is that they're finally challenging every other single competitor; now doing it for that reason is terrible but smart. as someone who is hispanic, i don't want to see a bunch of latina characters just so people can fill some kind of race quota. BUT the few changes that they're making have opened up a whole new brand of representation.

and that matters more than anything. now as a female who just got into comics i hardly know anything (well, i know some things and i mostly focus on independents) but i do know that when i was little i hardly ever saw characters that looked like me. all i wanted as a kid was to have a character somewhere that had looked like me. it didn't even have to be a comic book character but if it was a comic book character, it would have been great and i probably would have gotten into comics a lot sooner. people of color all need that. if you're white, you don't. the world literally caters to you (don't deny it because you know it's true) or as they say, "the world is your oyster".

i just don't think people are fully realizing how much the representation of the matter at hand is the important thing. i don't care if they go overboard with it. if people finally start to see themselves being reflected in the media then maybe they won't feel so wrong about being a certain race. representation matters, no matter how big or small and that's what needs to be recognized. not "oh great, they're going overboard with the minority thing. what's next? black superman??????" because that shows how terribly racist or misogynist (if we're talking about women led comics) you are and quite frankly that's disgusting.

[Tiamatty]

i've been wanting to join this conversation for a couple days now and i've only read the last ~10 pages and i don't know, everyone is bothering me.

marvel may want to make money by having characters that aren't white as mayonnaise and if they do it for the money, whatever, i can't change that. the great thing about marvel and minorities is that they're finally challenging every other single competitor; now doing it for that reason is terrible but smart. as someone who is hispanic, i don't want to see a bunch of latina characters just so people can fill some kind of race quota. BUT the few changes that they're making have opened up a whole new brand of representation.

and that matters more than anything. now as a female who just got into comics i hardly know anything (well, i know some things and i mostly focus on independents) but i do know that when i was little i hardly ever saw characters that looked like me. all i wanted as a kid was to have a character somewhere that had looked like me. it didn't even have to be a comic book character but if it was a comic book character, it would have been great and i probably would have gotten into comics a lot sooner. people of color all need that. if you're white, you don't. the world literally caters to you (don't deny it because you know it's true) or as they say, "the world is your oyster".

i just don't think people are fully realizing how much the representation of the matter at hand is the important thing. i don't care if they go overboard with it. if people finally start to see themselves being reflected in the media then maybe they won't feel so wrong about being a certain race. representation matters, no matter how big or small and that's what needs to be recognized. not "oh great, they're going overboard with the minority thing. what's next? black superman??????" because that shows how terribly racist or misogynist (if we're talking about women led comics) you are and quite frankly that's disgusting.

Yeah, it's easy for people like me - straight white men - to forget just how overwhelming our dominance of popular culture is. I was talking with someone on another site who claimed that kids don't care if someone looks like them, they only care about the powers, and that came across to me as an incredibly naive and privileged argument to make. You see a lot of white people talk about, "I don't care what colour a character is, I only care if they're cool!" But it's easy for us to "not care" about colour, because we're still the default. We still make up the vast majority of superheroes.

It always means a lot to find a character who's like you. I just finished college, in a Library Tech program, and one of my favourite characters is Karma - a character who went to university as a Librarian. I don't read DC, but I still have a spot in my heart for Barbara Gordon for the same reason. When I see characters in fiction talking about Star Trek (or Star Wars) or My Little Pony or other things I'm interested in, it gives me a little thrill. "He's right! Picard was totally the best Captain! I like this guy!"

If I get that feeling as someone who's otherwise overrepresented to an obscene degree, how much more powerful must it be to someone who doesn't get a lot of representation? How much must a positive Muslim character like Ms. Marvel mean to a Muslim who's used to only seeing himself in fiction as a terrorist? How great is it for a Latina to see a character like White Tiger - someone who's intensely proud of her heritage without being a stereotype?

So, yeah. I definitely agree with you.

[Clea]

If you misunderstood my comment about Colbert and America that badly, I wonder if you have ever watched a single episode and are even qualified to talk about what he focuses on or who his audience is.

And honestly, the more I think of it? The View spot was incredibly stupid. I'm a woman who reads comics. I have many friends who are also women who read comics. I do not know a single one who watches The View. In fact, when we heard there was going to be a Thor announcement on it, we all cringed, said it wasn't worth the misery, and we'd just read about it later online. There just really is not a lot of overlap between comicbook fans and The View viewers, even limiting it to women.
...
We know these characters have a time-limit because they are stepping in to fill the shoes of the big names while they're supposedly incapable of doing their jobs. And Marvel is not going to sideline Steve and Thor forever. That is precisely why we're talking about race and gender. Because it feels really cheap to say, "Oh, you want more diverse characters? Okay, we'll make Cap a black guy and Thor a woman until Age of Ultron comes out. That's good enough, right?" and make it such a big deal when they could be focusing on diverse characters who are actually going to stick around. And while your statement that they can do both is initially sound, when you look at the remarkably different efforts they put into promoting the former vs. the latter, it is more than a bit depressing.

Also, with Thor, it feels like they're setting her up for failure. Like you said, they already did this with another white dude, and it wasn't a big deal. It was so not a big deal that we all try to forget it happened....So what happens when the book doesn't do well? Do they acknowledge their part in it or do they shrug and point to it as another example of how "female characters just don't sell"?

I agree with you that announcing the female Thor on The View was unlikely to reach the most of the female audience who already read comics or who might be considering reading comics. IMO, The View is kinda ridiculous and gimmicky, but lots of people do watch it. I was surprised the other day when a female anchor on one of the local news stations mentioned that Thor was going to become a female. (I think they'd been talking about the summer movie schedule.) She looked extremely pleased at the very idea of a female Thor so I think that talking about this on The View has had some good consequences.

I expect that Marvel has already plotted out the entire female Thor story arc, including passing Mjolnir back over to Thor once he's ready to become 'worthy' again. I'm having flashbacks to Dr. Strange stepping down as Sorcerer Supreme for a while because he felt 'unworthy' and Brother Voodoo got to be Sorcerer Supreme for a while... but only until Hickman needed to use Strange at full power again in his run on New Avengers. Then, bang! Strange was suddenly 'worthy' again and got to be Sorcerer Supreme again.

No less a website than the investor website The Motley Fool has chimed in on the way that Marvel has marketed the changes to Thor and Captain America, here:
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-to-boost.aspx

They make a couple of very interesting points.

..."However, there are a few green shoots of growth. A recent analysis of comic book fans on Facebook (NASDAQ: FB ) found that 40% of comic fans are women, many of whom read digital comics instead of print ones. ... But female readers and digital sales can't save the comic book industry alone. ... With the new female Thor, Marvel's parent company Disney ignited a media firestorm by having Whoopi Goldberg make the announcement on ABC's The View. Yet longtime comic book fans have seen "female Thors" many times in the past. In the regular Marvel continuity, Storm wielded the hammer. In alternate continuities, Black Widow, Crusader, and even Jane Foster wielded it.

So why is Marvel making so much noise about a female Thor and a black Captain America? It's simple -- a female Thor and black Captain America generate more mainstream interest in comics than comic-specific events... If Marvel is serious about adding diversity to comics, it needs to introduce new heroes of other genders and ethnicities, not simply change the sex or race of existing ones. The classic Thor and Steve Rogers will obviously eventually reclaim their roles in the future, which further cheapens the "change."

I really encourage people to read this article for a couple of reasons. This is a stock market investor website so IMO it's interesting to see an investor assessment of Marvel's latest marketing ploy. Females now make up 40% of Marvel's comics market (at least per an analysis of the Facebook market). 40 percent! Let that sink in a second. Marvel can no longer take their female audience for granted or continue to portray their female characters purely to appeal to the boys/men who read these comics. Marvel not only wants the female market, they need this market if they are going to continue to boost sales. This latest marketing campaign was not aimed at the existing comics reading fandom. It was aimed at the mainstream media to raise awareness of Marvel's products, and apparently this approach is working. Finally, The Motley Fool article also agrees that if Marvel really wants to encourage diversity, they should stop with the temporary gimmicks and create new, interesting characters. Short term marketing tricks only bump up sales and profits temporarily.

[Mr MajestiK]

I agree with you that announcing the female Thor on The View was unlikely to reach the most of the female audience who already read comics or who might be considering reading comics. IMO, The View is kinda ridiculous and gimmicky, but lots of people do watch it. I was surprised the other day when a female anchor on one of the local news stations mentioned that Thor was going to become a female. (I think they'd been talking about the summer movie schedule.) She looked extremely pleased at the very idea of a female Thor so I think that talking about this on The View has had some good consequences.

I expect that Marvel has already plotted out the entire female Thor story arc, including passing Mjolnir back over to Thor once he's ready to become 'worthy' again. I'm having flashbacks to Dr. Strange stepping down as Sorcerer Supreme for a while because he felt 'unworthy' and Brother Voodoo got to be Sorcerer Supreme for a while... but only until Hickman needed to use Strange at full power again in his run on New Avengers. Then, bang! Strange was suddenly 'worthy' again and got to be Sorcerer Supreme again.

No less a website than the investor website The Motley Fool has chimed in on the way that Marvel has marketed the changes to Thor and Captain America, here:
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-to-boost.aspx

They make a couple of very interesting points.


I really encourage people to read this article for a couple of reasons. This is a stock market investor website so IMO it's interesting to see an investor assessment of Marvel's latest marketing ploy. Females now make up 40% of Marvel's comics market (at least per an analysis of the Facebook market). 40 percent! Let that sink in a second. Marvel can no longer take their female audience for granted or continue to portray their female characters purely to appeal to the boys/men who read these comics. Marvel not only wants the female market, they need this market if they are going to continue to boost sales. This latest marketing campaign was not aimed at the existing comics reading fandom. It was aimed at the mainstream media to raise awareness of Marvel's products, and apparently this approach is working. Finally, The Motley Fool article also agrees that if Marvel really wants to encourage diversity, they should stop with the temporary gimmicks and create new, interesting characters. Short term marketing tricks only bump up sales and profits temporarily.

This is a thoroughly solid and very thought provoking post.

Thanks for posting it.