Is Marvel's "Minority"/PC Month trying too hard?

[Aliltron]

No disrespect here, but that seems way too coincidental for me. It all must tie into the whole Secret Wars business.

I can understand Lady Thor because of the Thor's Granddaughters characters that Araron set up in his future Thor scenario. Remender, not so much. That old Cap story has been done already and the timing of Sam becoming Cap feels like the stunt it sadly is.

I gotta agree with you here too. And considering Steve had just returned to the role of Cap just about a year before Remender's run, it felt like they just replaced Cap, so it felt unoriginal to me.

[Ragdoll]

It isn't "too much" at all, I real all these comics and never once noticed. It was jarring on the day Captain America #5 and Thor #1 dropped on the same day, both replacing the title characters, but the shock wasn't that the replacements were minorities but that they were being replaced in the first place.

[Sandinista]

I personally find the whole "I can only connect with a character that looks like me" thing very problematic. This is part of the problem: this constant, chauvinistic identification with your little group. And I say this as a minority and an immigrant. Growing up in Brazil reading Marvel Comics the fact that I knew all the heroes were American never stopped me from fully enjoying the comics and identifying myself with many characters.

While I would love to see more female and minority characters I'm tired of this tokenism and making minority heroes "knock offs" of more popular history (a black Spider Man, a black Captain America, a black female Captain Marvel, a female Thor, etc). How about we stop this laziness and I don't know...CREATE NEW CHARACTERS of color? And then introduce and develop these characters in an organic and natural way rather than this whole corporate media blitz that they are doing.

All they are doing is ensuring these minority derivations will be quickly forgotten.

As much as I personally hate the Spawn comics, McFarlane really needs to be followed as an example here: he introduced a black hero who was not a stereotype and not a knock off of another, more popular white superhero. And it worked.

[Nipower888]

I personally find the whole "I can only connect with a character that looks like me" thing very problematic. This is part of the problem: this constant, chauvinistic identification with your little group. And I say this as a minority and an immigrant. Growing up in Brazil reading Marvel Comics the fact that I knew all the heroes were American never stopped me from fully enjoying the comics and identifying myself with many characters.

While I would love to see more female and minority characters I'm tired of this tokenism and making minority heroes "knock offs" of more popular history (a black Spider Man, a black Captain America, a black female Captain Marvel, a female Thor, etc). How about we stop this laziness and I don't know...CREATE NEW CHARACTERS of color? And then introduce and develop these characters in an organic and natural way rather than this whole corporate media blitz that they are doing.

All they are doing is ensuring these minority derivations will be quickly forgotten.

As much as I personally hate the Spawn comics, McFarlane really needs to be followed as an example here: he introduced a black hero who was not a stereotype and not a knock off of another, more popular white superhero. And it worked.

Representation has links to selfesteem as straight white men usually have higher self esteem as opposed to women, nonwhite people and queer people who have lower and think less of themselves.

Tokenism is having a minority characters there simply just to say hey look there's a minority character. They lack any character development and will never get any. Miles morales isnt a token. Sam isn't the only one that isn't Steve Rogers to take up the Cap mantle. Monica is awesome and isn't the only one to have the title captain marvel. Thor has been a frog. Most of them are legacy characters. They keep the lecacy of the previous character alive. Just like there have been four robins, multiple flashes, multiple wondergirls etc. Do you complain then?

[Holt]

The thing to remember in all this: when other stuff is getting announced all the time that stars white dudes, none of you feel like it's "pandering." Readers who aren't white dudes, though, they notice that. It's what happens in a community like this where one specific type of person is the "default."

That's it.

/Thread

[Sandinista]

Representation has links to selfesteem as straight white men usually have higher self esteem as opposed to women, nonwhite people and queer people who have lower and think less of themselves.

Is this true? Because I think there's some very serious research out there that says it ain't. While I've seen research that watching TV will lower most groups self-esteem but white boys...there's a plethora of research showing that blacks consistently show higher rates of self-esteem than whites. A large, meta-analysis of dozens of studies on race and self-esteem have found that both black men and black women have equal and often higher self-esteem than white people. Here's the source:

http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/prba/p...2004/adams.pdf

It's interesting reading.

Tokenism is having a minority characters there simply just to say hey look there's a minority character. They lack any character development and will never get any.

That's exactly what all these new minority characters are: window dressing. I'm as much of a fan of Miles Morales as the next guy...but to say his personality and personal history is as developed as Peter Parker is pure comedy. And the Falcon? For God's Sake, if you look up "token black sidekick with zero personality" in the dictionary you will see his picture.

I stand by all my statements. All of these new female and minority knock offs are not being developed organically or seriously. They are advertising tricks and no one seriously believes that any effort will be made to their development.

They keep the lecacy of the previous character alive. Just like there have been four robins, multiple flashes, multiple wondergirls etc. Do you complain then?

Two points to be made...there are not legacy characters. You can argue that the Flash is a legacy character: three different men have worn the mantle. Same thing with Robin. The costume is more important than the man wearing it. Thor is not a legacy character and neither is Captain America. The two characters have been completely identified with their alter egos for 40 plus years. To call them legacy characters now is just ridiculous.

And I don't read much DC by the way...as terrible and sloppy as the Marvel Universe is, DC is worse...

[Holt]

When straight, white and male stops being the majority lead of comic films, of comic books... then MAYBE you'd have a point. But I look at Thor, Cap, Iron Man... add Hawkeye, Hulk, Punisher... still seems pretty damn straight, pretty damn white, pretty damn male. Marvel has constantly told us how New Avengers is THE flagship comic (a team dominated by straight, white, men). Who leads the mutant Revolution (a straight, white man). Who's the lead solo star (Spiderman... a straight, white, man). Most teams are without an LGBT character, there are lots of teams without any latino characters or disabled characters, there are some teams with no Asian characters; there are a few teams with no black characters. I can only think of one comic without any straight, white, male characters on the main cast (and that's X-men... which Beast is constantly guest starring in, so...). You're still the majority in the comic world, and you are in every comic, fret not.

I was about to just say that. The persecution fantasy of "Everyone hates straight white males and now all of the entertainment industry is trying to avoid them" falls apart when you look at the actual stuff still being produced.

For every Scandal or How To Get Away With Murder you've still got ten shows starring white guys.

For every Black Panther or Captain Marvel you still get a bunch of movies about white male superheroes.

It's okay guys. White males aren't going away any time soon.

Hell, these are the next crop of Avengers.



I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing a lack of white guys or a big surplus of women and minorities. I just see some bad photoshop.

This comes awfully close to sounding like you're saying "you can't be sexist against men" or "you can't be racist against whites". Neither is the case. Straight white men being present in comics isn't the issue.

I wouldn't say you can't be racist against white men, just that at this point I don't really give a crap. The representation in the industry is so massively lopsided (Again, an Avengers movie with a team consisting of 8 white people and a red robot) that at this point I really don't care about people saying there's an agenda or reverse racism. Black Nick Fury and Perry White and Jimmy Olsen and Heimdall and Iris West and Deadshot or Asian Watson are a small drop in the bucket. To look at those or Ms. Marvel or Miles Morales and say that clearly this means as a whole the industry is squeezing out white men is preposterous.

[Holt]

I'll grant you that comic books are actually making an effort towards inclusion. Video game publishers? No. So much no. Same with movie studios. They still treat Straight White Male as the default for protagonists, with women and minorities getting supporting roles. And even in comic books, Straight White Male is the default. They're just actually making an effort to be a little more inclusive.

Video games especially makes me laugh because people frequently claim that games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect are digs at white males and a sign of white men being targeted because you can make your main character have any ethnicity, many of the supporting characters are visibly non-white, and you can can put the lead in gay and lesbian relationships.

When the only reason that is notable at all is because 99 percent of the Western video game industry still tends to revolve around white males. Games striving to be inclusive like Dragon Age are the exception, not the rule.

This reminds me of people being mad that the first character seen in the new Star Wars trailer is black, and that this is somehow a conspiracy to make a social statement.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/01/showbi...m-john-boyega/

[Nipower888]

Is this true? Because I think there's some very serious research out there that says it ain't. While I've seen research that watching TV will lower most groups self-esteem but white boys...there's a plethora of research showing that blacks consistently show higher rates of self-esteem than whites. A large, meta-analysis of dozens of studies on race and self-esteem have found that both black men and black women have equal and often higher self-esteem than white people. Here's the source:

http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/prba/p...2004/adams.pdf

It's interesting reading.



That's exactly what all these new minority characters are: window dressing. I'm as much of a fan of Miles Morales as the next guy...but to say his personality and personal history is as developed as Peter Parker is pure comedy. And the Falcon? For God's Sake, if you look up "token black sidekick with zero personality" in the dictionary you will see his picture.

I stand by all my statements. All of these new female and minority knock offs are not being developed organically or seriously. They are advertising tricks and no one seriously believes that any effort will be made to their development.



Two points to be made...there are not legacy characters. You can argue that the Flash is a legacy character: three different men have worn the mantle. Same thing with Robin. The costume is more important than the man wearing it. Thor is not a legacy character and neither is Captain America. The two characters have been completely identified with their alter egos for 40 plus years. To call them legacy characters now is just ridiculous.

And I don't read much DC by the way...as terrible and sloppy as the Marvel Universe is, DC is worse...

I meant watching tv lowers eveyones self esteem but white guys. But I said it wrong . Very wrong.

Miles is a new character he isn't gonna have the development Peter has. He is one of the best new charaters out. I'm not gonna argue about falcon being a token. Characters change all the time. People always complain about minority characters wether they are legacy characters or not. I'm happy to get characters of color and I don't care if they are legacy or replacement characters as long as they are give decent characterization

Thor has been a frog so a women replacing him isnt a big deal and cap has been replaced before by both Bucky and falcon.

[Mr MajestiK]

I was about to just say that. The persecution fantasy of "Everyone hates straight white males and now all of the entertainment industry is trying to avoid them" falls apart when you look at the actual stuff still being produced.

For every Scandal or How To Get Away With Murder you've still got ten shows starring white guys.

For every Black Panther or Captain Marvel you still get a bunch of movies about white male superheroes.

It's okay guys. White males aren't going away any time soon.

Hell, these are the next crop of Avengers.



I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing a lack of white guys or a big surplus of women and minorities. I just see some bad photoshop.



I wouldn't say you can't be racist against white men, just that at this point I don't really give a crap. The representation in the industry is so massively lopsided (Again, an Avengers movie with a team consisting of 8 white people and a red robot) that at this point I really don't care about people saying there's an agenda or reverse racism. Black Nick Fury and Perry White and Jimmy Olsen and Heimdall and Iris West and Deadshot or Asian Mercy Graves are a small drop in the bucket. To look at those or Ms. Marvel or Miles Morales and say that clearly this means as a whole the industry is squeezing out white men is preposterous.

I find myself in total agreement with this post.

[leo619]

Is this true? Because I think there's some very serious research out there that says it ain't. While I've seen research that watching TV will lower most groups self-esteem but white boys...there's a plethora of research showing that blacks consistently show higher rates of self-esteem than whites. A large, meta-analysis of dozens of studies on race and self-esteem have found that both black men and black women have equal and often higher self-esteem than white people. Here's the source:

http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/prba/p...2004/adams.pdf

Yes there is tons of research that illustrates television and such has low self esteem. Your article primarily compounds on ideology before the time frame of intergration, the article regarding television is much more recent and represents a current representation of self esteem. Another example illustrated by this is the 1970's and recently redone doll test, which black children who were presented with black and white dolls indicated that the black dolls were bad and the white dolls were good.

That's exactly what all these new minority characters are: window dressing. I'm as much of a fan of Miles Morales as the next guy...but to say his personality and personal history is as developed as Peter Parker is pure comedy. And the Falcon? For God's Sake, if you look up "token black sidekick with zero personality" in the dictionary you will see his picture.

I stand by all my statements. All of these new female and minority knock offs are not being developed organically or seriously. They are advertising tricks and no one seriously believes that any effort will be made to their development.

You can make these statements until they are blue in the face, that doesn't mean that it is in any way shape or form accurate. Your predetermined bias has already place these individuals in these categories, no matter what evidence is proven otherwise. But these characters are far more than just "knock offs" as miles morales himself has created a massive change in mainstream alone.

Two points to be made...there are not legacy characters. You can argue that the Flash is a legacy character: three different men have worn the mantle. Same thing with Robin. The costume is more important than the man wearing it. Thor is not a legacy character and neither is Captain America. The two characters have been completely identified with their alter egos for 40 plus years. To call them legacy characters now is just ridiculous.

And I don't read much DC by the way...as terrible and sloppy as the Marvel Universe is, DC is worse...

Another clear example of you trying to move the goal post to meet your goals. Both Captain America and Thor has had numerous individuals maintaining the mantle, especially Captain America. If you knew better, you would know that this isn't even the first time Falcon held the mantle as Captain America.

[Tiamatty]

I was about to just say that. The persecution fantasy of "Everyone hates straight white males and now all of the entertainment industry is trying to avoid them" falls apart when you look at the actual stuff still being produced.

For every Scandal or How To Get Away With Murder you've still got ten shows starring white guys.

For every Black Panther or Captain Marvel you still get a bunch of movies about white male superheroes.

It's okay guys. White males aren't going away any time soon.

Hell, these are the next crop of Avengers.

I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing a lack of white guys or a big surplus of women and minorities. I just see some bad photoshop.



I wouldn't say you can't be racist against white men, just that at this point I don't really give a crap. The representation in the industry is so massively lopsided (Again, an Avengers movie with a team consisting of 8 white people and a red robot) that at this point I really don't care about people saying there's an agenda or reverse racism. Black Nick Fury and Perry White and Jimmy Olsen and Heimdall and Iris West and Deadshot or Asian Mercy Graves are a small drop in the bucket. To look at those or Ms. Marvel or Miles Morales and say that clearly this means as a whole the industry is squeezing out white men is preposterous.

Exactly. It is such a massive imbalance. Let's take a look at Marvel's February solicits. There are 76 comics solicited for this month. There are 13 solo titles starring a person of colour. 12 solo titles starring a woman (two of which are women of colour). 23 solo titles starring white men. Plus one starring a raccoon. So there are as many solos about white men as there are women and minorities combined.

Of the remainder, there's maybe a dozen comics that can be considered "mostly diverse" - where a large portion of the cast is made up of women or people of colour. And that's probably being generous. There's a couple others where a woman is arguably the lead (for example, All-New X-Men has two women to four men, and no people of colour, but Jean is the main character). But in general, the larger the cast, the more likely it ends up being that the cast will be mostly white and male, and that white men will be the main leads.

And yeah, that's just looking at one month, but it's a single month at a time where Marvel is actually more diverse than normal. (And it's a month where there are four parts of a Captain Falcon mini, which boosts the number of minority-led solos quite a bit.) For years, the idea that Marvel would ever have a dozen female solo titles at once was completely unimaginable. Same with the idea of them having a dozen solos starring people of colour. And this increase in diversity is being met with criticism. People are getting angry that there are so many books out there that don't star white men. Why? I'm honestly wondering why all this diversity is met with criticism. Are some of the books bad? Well, actually, that's the thing: Not really. Not all of them are going to appeal to everybody. But they will all appeal to somebody. All of the female-led solo titles are excellent in their own ways, from the dark tension of Black Widow and Elektra to the bright fun of Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl. The only one I think is genuinely weak is Storm's solo. The same thing with the books starring people of colour. All-New Ghost Rider is a fantastic title, if only fans of older Ghost Riders would get over their hang-ups. Nova is a genuinely great book, if only fans of Richard Rider would get over their hang-ups. Miles Morales still gets tons of critical praise. They're all good books.

So it's not low quality that's behind the criticism. So what is it? Why are so many people so dissatisfied with Marvel's diversity push? I'll agree that the lack of people of colour who are getting their own identity is frustrating (Storm and Silk are the only people of colour with solos who aren't carrying on a legacy), but I feel like a lot of the criticism only uses that as an afterthought, with the amount of diversity itself being the main target.

[themasething]

This'll be construed as "too simplistic" but fuck it...

When a "white person" take a part of a "minority culture" it's called "co-oping" and seen as wrong.
When a "minority culture" takes a part of "white culture" and uses it, it's called "progressive" and seen as positive.

Do people not see the irony and imbalance here?

[Holt]

What part of "White culture" are any of these characters co-opting by existing? I'm curious. Because to my knowledge all those characters in question are American.

Do people not see the irony and imbalance here?

The only irony is someone genuinely trying to use the notion of imbalance to claim white characters are somehow the ones on the short end of the stick when as we were already discussing in this thread, white characters and heroes vastly outnumber minority ones. Hence the reason it's notable when a white character is race lifted in the first place.

[Heisennerd]

This'll be construed as "too simplistic" but fuck it...

When a "white person" take a part of a "minority culture" it's called "co-oping" and seen as wrong.
When a "minority culture" takes a part of "white culture" and uses it, it's called "progressive" and seen as positive.

Do people not see the irony and imbalance here?

are comic books supposed to be "white culture"?

sheesh, it's pretty clear some of you don't want any non-whites around in this culture you claim to have ownership of