Detective Comics #974 preview

[Caivu]

Did people expect that she could wear the bat symbol in Gotham and Batman would not factor into her book? The fact is you can't co-opt Batman's symbol for your own and think he won't have something to say about it.

It did come up, briefly, in her first series, and Kate's answer was simply that the bat she wears is hers. She gets to decide what it means.

[Twice-named]

[QUOTE=Caivu;3461046]It's very odd that you speak highly of Williams and Blackman as Kate's writers, since you're apparently ignoring that they had her go through the very thing you're critical of. Character development.

I’m not critical of character development. I’m critical of writers ignoring a character’s essence.

[Caivu]

I’m not critical of character development. I’m critical of writers ignoring a character’s essence.

Okay, but they aren't ignoring it.

[Barbatos666]

Brother Eye was a disaster waiting to happen if only because of Bruce's crappy luck with his attempts to police the superhero community going wrong. Also, didn't the reboot version attack the JLI?
I'm aware of what happened after Bruce broke Selina out. It doesn't change the fact he played blatant favorites in that instance and that if he can be forgiven for that, then Kate shouldn't get any flack for killing Clayface to stop him when Bruce has committed far more questionable actions. Hell Bruce had no issue with Selina killing Blackmask in cold blood pre-Flashpoint.

Its not a disaster waiting to happen. Brother Eye and OMAC are heroes particularly the rebooted version. The JLI plot line was never acknowledged but even there it was revealed to have been taken over by outside forces.

At the end of the day its a tool, a glorified camera. Creating a tool isn't a disaster waiting to happen. Its like saying Stark and T'Challa create disasters waiting to happen all the time.

He broke Selina out to help him with Bane and he broke out other inmates as well. So they're not even break outs as he had official permission from Waller, Gordon and Arkham.

Selina doesn't call herself Batwoman either. She's a crminal.

[Bigwinnie101]

It did come up, briefly, in her first series, and Late's answer was simply that the bat she wears is hers. She gets to decide what it means.

Not really. Its like taking someone else brand image and using for your product. She is lucky Bruce found out who she was when she ran around using the Bat-symbol.

The Symbol is a moral contract with the city that you will follow Batmans rules because he was the first on the scene and he was the person who inspired all sorts of people to wear his symbol in the face of corruption and unfairness and fight back.

You can't wear that symbol and then murder someone and then say" No its my symbol now" No its bruces symbol and by wearing it you link yourself to Batman and his code.

Jason and Bruce had a long talk about that during the New 52 after his face got burned by Joker acid and Roy and Starfire took him to the mansion to heal. Since then Jason started killing less and less until he didn't do it at all.

You may ask but why does Jason get the pass for awhile and Kate doesn't? Well Because Jason died and then brought back after he was cold for awhile using the Lazarus pits, Which fucks with your head. SO he got the benefit of the doubt by Bruce until he was able to talk since into the boy and it worked.

Kate is close family on one part and also She is older and should have known how all this was going to play out as soon as she pushed that trigger. She knows her Older cousin well enough I thought to atleast know he was gonna go off. If She had seemed atleast remorseful about the shot she took it would have been better for everyone but her defensiveness and having to fight back just made it worse. Also She aint got **** to say To Cass after she shot one of the girls best friends in the head in front of her, leaving her with a dead body in her arms with tears streaming down her face?

[Caivu]

Not really. Its like taking someone else brand image and using for your product. She is lucky Bruce found out who she was when she ran around using the Bat-symbol.

The Symbol is a moral contract with the city that you will follow Batmans rules because he was the first on the scene and he was the person who inspired all sorts of people to wear his symbol in the face of corruption and unfairness and fight back.

Assuming that's all true, Kate doesn't agree with that, even if she has mostly respected it.

You can't wear that symbol and then murder someone and then say" No its my symbol now" No its bruces symbol and by wearing it you link yourself to Batman and his code.

Just to nitpick, for clarity: she didn't murder, and she said what she did about her symbol well before this happened.

Kate is close family on one part and also She is older and should have known how all this was going to play out as soon as she pushed that trigger. She knows her Older cousin well enough I thought to atleast know he was gonna go off.

I think she maybe figured that the others would recognize that this was an extreme case, and could be reasoned with to some extent, at least.

Also She aint got **** to say To Cass after she shot one of the girls best friends in the head in front of her, leaving her with a dead body in her arms with tears streaming down her face?

Well, she tried to, before Cass got ahold of her (which I totally don't blame Cass for, to be clear). Besides, it's was still immediately after and everyone was pretty heated. Things should cool down some first for that sort of stuff.

[Agent Z]

No Bruce is not perfect, far from it. But he is vastly superior to Kate, and that is something you will just have to accept. I make no apologies for my love of Bruce, he is one of the greatest characters in all of comicdom, and arguably the #1 character with the #1 book at this moment in time. And when someone is at the top others are always looking to tear them down, which is what a lot of posters on this board seek to do. Blaming Bruce for all the problems of the Batfamily seems to be a common thing here, no matter what the issue, it's somehow always Bruce's fault. And also trying to diminish his capacity, acomplishments and effectiveness is also commonplace here. So I will always proudly defend Bruce because only a handful truly do.

No ones blaming Bruce for anything here. Just pointing out how unreasonable he's being. The feats are also kind of irrelevant to this conversation.

[Agent Z]

And in those 10 minutes, she's acted remorseless and cold to those around her. If you ignore that Bruce COULD have called in for help to save Basil and just say that there really was no other way, that's the worst thing about what she's done. It's not too late for her to turn around and make amends but she did not get off on the right foot.

Let's say Bruce was able to call in help and whoever he called wasn't preoccupied with something else. How many would have died before that help arrived? Perhaps Kate could be a bit more remorseful over having to kill Basil but she's far from being unreasonable to say she made the right call.

[Agent Z]

Its not a disaster waiting to happen. Brother Eye and OMAC are heroes particularly the rebooted version. The JLI plot line was never acknowledged but even there it was revealed to have been taken over by outside forces.

At the end of the day its a tool, a glorified camera. Creating a tool isn't a disaster waiting to happen. Its like saying Stark and T'Challa create disasters waiting to happen all the time.

He broke Selina out to help him with Bane and he broke out other inmates as well. So they're not even break outs as he had official permission from Waller, Gordon and Arkham.

Selina doesn't call herself Batwoman either. She's a crminal.

Cameras don't turn random people into killer cyborgs. And the fact that it's been taken over by outside forces and did immense damage in two continuities just reinforces my point. And the fact that Bruce played a hand in the development of the A.I in both continuities is just the cherry on top.

When did he get permission from Gordon? It certainly didn't look like he did especially when he tried to arrest Selina later.

All of them are criminals. Selina' just honest about it.

[Barbatos666]

Cameras don't turn random people into killer cyborgs. And the fact that it's been taken over by outside forces and did immense damage in two continuities just reinforces my point. And the fact that Bruce played a hand in the development of the A.I in both continuities is just the cherry on top.

When did he get permission from Gordon? It certainly didn't look like he did especially when he tried to arrest Selina later.

All of them are criminals. Selina' just honest about it.

And its also a hero in other continuities. Tech can be used for good and evil. Bruce created a giant camera, outside factors turned it in to something else. You can turn a random laptop in to a deadly weapon. Might as well take the creator to court then for cyber crimes.

All the inmates were officially released for the mission. It was Waller's idea, she had Selina's death penalty overturned and Arkham was in on it.

He stopped trying to arrest her when he learned the truth and they apparantely got Holly to confess anyway. Besides she would not have been safe in Blackgate anyway. That place is Bane's fiefdom.

Be that as it may, she doesn't run around being a vigilante who wears the Bat symbol.

[Doctor Bifrost]

He broke Selina out to help him with Bane and he broke out other inmates as well. So they're not even break outs as he had official permission from Waller, Gordon and Arkham.

Wait a minute. He had permission from Waller, Gordon, and Arkham to break Selina out before he did so? Can you show me where that was indicated?

[Barbatos666]

Batman 6, 9-15.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Jason and Bruce had a long talk about that during the New 52 after his face got burned by Joker acid and Roy and Starfire took him to the mansion to heal. Since then Jason started killing less and less until he didn't do it at all.

You may ask but why does Jason get the pass for awhile and Kate doesn't? Well Because Jason died and then brought back after he was cold for awhile using the Lazarus pits, Which fucks with your head. SO he got the benefit of the doubt by Bruce until he was able to talk since into the boy and it worked.

Comic book writers are very lucky that have have readers who will make excuses for character choices that the writers didn't bother to justify.

Bruce talked to Jason and "since then Jason started killing less and less..."? Wow, no wonder Batman was satisfied with Jason's actions! Less and less! And then finally, later, "he didn't do it at all." Well, as long as he got around to it!

And he gets a pass because the Lazarus Pits "f*cks with your head"? Okay, rule of thumb: if Batman decides that your head is so messed up that it's caused you to kill in the past and you're still having trouble deciding whether or not to kill, then Batman puts you under wraps until you are no longer that messed up in the head. Otherwise he's just letting a murderer run around, because the murderer is "getting better over time." That's letting people get killed. (I can understand Batman not holding Jason morally responsible, due to Lazarus Pit problems. But when someone with a tendency towards violence is so messed up that they're not morally responsible, you lock them up.)

Of course, over in Justice League of America, Batman invited a remorseless sociopathic genocidal murderer to join his Justice League. And when Killer Frost killed Tsaritsa, Batman didn't bat an eye. This is Batman's hand-picked team, regardless of what symbol they're wearing, just like Orphan and Red Robin (who I believe are also not wearing the bat symbol, so let's not pretend this is "all about the symbol") are part of his other team.

So: the writers put Batwoman in a no-win situation. And then they picked a specific personality for Batman to have, which is at odds with the personality that he has shown in other situations which are easy to point out, and still in continuity. Big Drama! Amazing Plot Development! Fine. But that doesn't mean Batman is obviously right, or Batwoman is obviously wrong. Although some people seem to want to make it that way, by explaining away other situations.

EDITED TO ADD: It's worth noting that I've just seen a conversation very much like this over on the Wonder Woman board, which went on in great detail, concerning Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord. (Wonder Woman #219, Sept. 2005, at least two continuities ago, but still a hot button for many readers.)

And I think the question asked there is the question that needs to be asked here: What would you have had the character do?

And what would have followed?

If the writers want to create a world in which "there is always a better way," that's entirely their right as creators. But then the world should have some better thing for the character to do. And if there isn't a better way (because they deliberately created a no-win situation), then having supposedly smart superheroes insisting angrily "there's always a better way!" is something of a misconnect with the world they've created.

[Barbatos666]

Those other writers dont care that's why. Tynion's entire Tec has been about how others measure up to Bruce and how they compare to him. Its the same formula that he has repeated again and again. This is about building Kate, showing how she is uniquer and cooler and totally Bruce's equal. That's when these debates start up in Batman comics to build up the other guy.

[Bat-Meal]

You may ask but why does Jason get the pass for awhile and Kate doesn't? Well Because Jason died and then brought back after he was cold for awhile using the Lazarus pits, Which fucks with your head.

Kate was revived by a Lazarus Pit.

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1608865.html