Detective Comics #974 preview

[Bat-Meal]

Do things your own way, Kate. Make your own family. You really don't need two alpha-dog men telling you what to do.

I've always found Bruce and Kate's relationship slightly creepy since they became cousins. By all implications it looks like he only brought her into the family to keep her under some level of control, and influence her behaviour. Thematically this is problematic.

Add to that he kept his uncle locked-up in the Belfry, he might keep his cousin locked-up in his Batcave after she takes over the Colony.

Luke and Bruce go back a long way before him and Kate. Bruce gave him his suit and made him Batwing.

Knowing someone longer doesn't always mean you agree with them.

For that matter Bruce and Kate have known each other longer than anyone else in the Team (since childhood), and they definitely don't agree.

[Hulkout42]

Knowing someone longer doesn't always mean you agree with them. And why wouldn't JPV join?

You do remember the ambush and subsequent beatdown they gave him right? A beatdown that saw him in a hospital bed for a lengthy time. The only logical reason to join them would be to make sure someone was watching Kate's back or spy on them for the Bat.

[Caivu]

You do remember the ambush and subsequent beatdown they gave him right? A beatdown that saw him in a hospital bed for a lengthy time. The only logical reason to join them would be to make sure someone was watching Kate's back or spy on them for the Bat.

I do, but I don't see why that should necessarily matter. He could just, y'know... agree with them more.

[Bat-Meal]

I rather got the impression that Batwing and Azrael have been almost as much cast out as Batwoman - when they didn't immediately either condemn her or stay silent like the others, Batman 'told' them they could 'join' her.

I read that as, 'you don't agree with me - you're also dismissed'.

Regardless of their feelings about things, now that there's been some time for reflection - it's unlikely they'd be welcomed back, not easily, and not without looking like jerks for standing by one friend and then switching and going back to another. They wouldn't be very liked, and they wouldn't be fully trusted by either side.

They can't really go back to Batman, not without at least some form of verbal sparring match with their loyalties being questioned by the others - that could just make matters worse. But they can go to Batwoman.

The choice was made in that instant and there's no going back.

[Hulkout42]

I rather got the impression that Batwing and Azrael have been almost as much cast out as Batwoman - when they didn't immediately either condemn her or stay silent like the others, Batman 'told' them they could 'join' her.

I read that as, 'you don't agree with me - you're also dismissed'.

Regardless of their feelings about things, now that there's been some time for reflection - it's unlikely they'd be welcomed back, not easily, and not without looking like jerks for standing by one friend and then switching and going back to another. They wouldn't be very liked, and they wouldn't be fully trusted by either side.

They can't really go back to Batman, not without at least some form of verbal sparring match with their loyalties being questioned by the others - that could just make matters worse. But they can go to Batwoman.

The choice was made in that instant and there's no going back.

Perhaps, or perhaps this is just a big set up for when the little maniac makes his move and the whole family must unite to stop him and brother eye.

[PurpleGlovez]

Ironically for me the only person who looks bad here is Batman. Did he honestly think that putting Basil on the team was just gonna end with roses and sunshine? I haaaate this Clayface reform arc and I’m so ready for this to be in the past forever. They need to stop putting Batman in these situations that drag his character down so much.

Incidentally, I just read the three (!) post-Crisis origins of Matthew Hagen and they are all sooo good. They reminded me that you don’t have to turn a villain into a good guy to make him interesting or compelling. The cool thing about Matt is, there’s no sympathetic backstory to justify his actions - he’s just a bastard and scoundrel through and through and he embraces it. His story from Secret Origins 44 in particular is downright hilarious.

Tynion crafted a good, all-around “definitive” Clayface origin in that annual but it only makes his “reform” look even more insane. Batman gives Basil a second chance to go to the police and help them convict Dagget... only he instead takes a hard left on the opposite path and embraces full-on supervillainy. That was Basil’s choice. The Batman I know who belives in personal responsibility doesn’t give out third chances to criminals and murderers. (And we have seen Clayface kill in the New 52; in the old continuity, of course, he debuted as a serial killer.)

[Agent Z]

When did Jason stop killing?

Also odd how this "we have to be better" b.s never applies to things less justifiable like torture or privacy violation. Brother Eye would be a bigger PR disaster than Kate offing some villain.

[Caivu]

When did Jason stop killing?

And why was he ever allowed back after murdering people? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Barbatos666]

I've always found Bruce and Kate's relationship slightly creepy since they became cousins. By all implications it looks like he only brought her into the family to keep her under some level of control, and influence her behaviour. Thematically this is problematic.

Add to that he kept his uncle locked-up in the Belfry, he might keep his cousin locked-up in his Batcave after she takes over the Colony.





For that matter Bruce and Kate have known each other longer than anyone else in the Team (since childhood), and they definitely don't agree.

They met each other at one funeral. Their families weren't close and that's why Bruce was raised by Alfred alone. The last point in particular is crucial to the Batman character.

[Barbatos666]

When did Jason stop killing?

Also odd how this "we have to be better" b.s never applies to things less justifiable like torture or privacy violation. Brother Eye would be a bigger PR disaster than Kate offing some villain.

I believe he hasn't killed since the patch up in DOTF.

[Bat-Meal]

They met each other at one funeral. Their families weren't close and that's why Bruce was raised by Alfred alone. The last point in particular is crucial to the Batman character.

https://i1.wp.com/cdn.heroesvue.com/...cs_page102.jpg

"Remember last summer? Beth and I stole your truck and ran through the yard.You cried and called us big jerks."

[Barbatos666]

https://i1.wp.com/cdn.heroesvue.com/...cs_page102.jpg

"Remember last summer? Beth and I stole your truck and ran through the yard.You cried and called us big jerks."

I think I'll go with the larger canon than some shoe horned retcon.

[Punisher007]

And why was he ever allowed back after murdering people? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Bruce also let Damian keep being Robin after he killed multiple people. But that's been, and I say this as a huge Batman fan, a flaw in his character. He can be hypocritical at times, and there's this arrogant "I decide what everyone can and can't do in my city. You adhere to MY morals and do things how I want you do, or I have the right to kick you out." And someone like Kate or Jason aren't willing to completely cow tow to Bruce's whims, nor should they because he is not the "god of Gotham."

And that's not even really a problem on it's face, it gives the characters more layers. It's just that some writers don't have the nuance to pull it off well, so Bruce comes across as less a "basically decent if flawed guy" and more of a "Batjerk."

[Agent Z]

I believe he hasn't killed since the patch up in DOTF.

What about in his own book?

Hell, he was wearing the Bat symbol in the very first issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws.

[Aahz]

I believe he hasn't killed since the patch up in DOTF.

Not really the last time he killed someone on panel was was RH/A #13 (the last issue pre rebirth).

The are more character who killed people, who Batman teamed up with, Katana for example.