Typhoid's Kiss

[Mike_Murdock]

I picked up the Trade Paperback called Typhoid's Kiss, which includes that story (Marvel Comics Presents 109-116). I was wondering if anyone else read it and what they think. The premise is Wolverine is investigating people involved in mind control/psychological conditioning to make killers. It seems to me to be a follow-up to Daredevil #236 and #247, which dealt with these exact same psychological experiments (and, fwiw, I'm pretty sure explicitly ties itself into Nuke from DD #232-233). One thing I'm trying to figure out, though, is whether Typhoid Mary was actually connected to these experiments or if she was ultimately a coincidence?

Overall, I liked the story. This story would have just followed up Weapon X, so the experiment themes combined with themes of being a killer, seeking revenge, mind control, and spy stuff are very much up Wolverine's alley. And Typhoid was, at least, a very threatening villain.

[Tiamatty]

Was that the one with the gender-fluid kid?

[Mike_Murdock]

Didn't look like it, no. This is the one with Wolverine and Typhoid Mary.

ETA: Here's a review of the story if people need to know what I'm talking about

[Cthulhudrew]

I don't recall if Nocenti ever explicitly identified Typhoid Mary as a mutant, or if that was a later "revelation" (my guess would be the latter). In any event, I'm pretty sure that Nocenti's intent was that Mary had been connected with the experiments- either as the origin of her powers or perhaps her psychosis, if not both.

(I'm going to have to go back and reread that story; IIRC, it was written well before Hama's Wolverine run, with its revelations of the mind-control experiments of the Weapon X experiments. In light of that, as well as Nuke's later revealed connections as part of an American attempt to create a Super-Soldier, I'd imagine this experiment- and possibly Typhoid- could be seen as yet another offshoot of an attempt to replicate the Super Soldier project.)

[Mike_Murdock]

Unless I'm badly misremembering, the experiments in #236 and 247 were explicitly a callback to Nuke and the supersoldier program. I wasn't entirely clear if this story was an explicit callback to those stories, but it seemed to use similar brainwashing techniques. So I would say that these experiments are at least reasonably supersoldier experiments.

I guess the follow-up question is which is better. This version of Typhoid - where she either had her powers at a young age and was subjected to mind control to hopefully control them or the retcon of Daredevil/Deadpool Annual where the prostitute kicked out the window in The Man Without Fear was Typhoid who ended up getting the split personality. Personally, I never really liked that retcon because it isn't very consistent with what came before. I'd be willing to accept that Mary had her personalities under control at the time (not that Matt created the issues), but it's not very consistent with Mary Walker either.

[Tiamatty]

Pretty sure I read this story. Pretty sure I enjoyed it. Pretty sure a fair bit went over my head, because Nocenti was a very smart writer.

[Cthulhudrew]

Went back and refamiliarized myself with Nocenti's DD run and those MCP stories. I'd forgotten that Nocenti established (multiple times) that Mary had been institutionalized all her life and that she had manifested her powers while being so institutionalized. I don't think that mind-control program in the MCP was connected to her, but I think she sympathized with the victims of it due to her own treatments while young. There are actually two more arcs in MCP (one with Ghost Rider, one with Wolverine/GR and DD) that feature similar storylines, particularly the third one.

I'd definitely say that Nocenti's original version- of Typhoid as life-long victim of mental trauma- is the one that should be canon. Aside from being the creator's vision, it was a constant theme in so many of Typhoid's storylines that dispensing with it for a rather random tie-in to Miller's Daredevil run seems very silly. (And I loved Kelly's Deadpool, don't get me wrong). If one really had to keep that part of her history for some reason, I'd retcon it by saying that was a time when the Typhoid personality was dominant, but that Daredevil kicking her out the window somehow caused a resurgence of her psychosis and brought Mary back into conflict or something. Probably best to ignore it, though, as I think that it is reductive and it really diminishes the tragedy of Typhoid's character and the impact of so many of her stories that deal with mental trauma.

[Mike_Murdock]

I'd agree with that. I personally don't consider The Man Without Fear to be canon since it wasn't intended to be and there are too many inconsistencies, but that Annual is, so it's worth reconciling the two. I'd have to re-read the story, but I think it also touches on Matt's actions in The Fall of the Kingpin towards Mary (where he pushes some ethical lines), which I do think is interesting without conflating that with the other story. If anything, the whole prostitute not being dead thing just feels like an attempt to alleviate Matt's guilt and not serve Typhoid Mary's character.

[Mike_Murdock]

I read some more of the Typhoid's Kiss trade, so I have some additional thoughts.

Was that the one with the gender-fluid kid?

That was Marvel Comics Presents 150-151. It's an interesting story. It's the first appearance of Bloody Mary (someone I had assumed post-dated Nocenti). The kid, Jesse Drake, is an empathic metamorph. There's arguably some ambiguity over whether Jesse truly sees herself as female despite an assigned gender of male or if she is absorbing Bloody Mary's strong feelings on women vs. men. She does explicitly state that she identifies as a girl and this seems to be a moment of genuinely standing up for herself rather than absorbing the feelings of others, but it's hard to say for certain. To me, this moment is Ann Nocenti at her strengths. It's a political subject she handles with subtlety and just enough ambiguity without pulling her punches.

Went back and refamiliarized myself with Nocenti's DD run and those MCP stories. I'd forgotten that Nocenti established (multiple times) that Mary had been institutionalized all her life and that she had manifested her powers while being so institutionalized. I don't think that mind-control program in the MCP was connected to her, but I think she sympathized with the victims of it due to her own treatments while young. There are actually two more arcs in MCP (one with Ghost Rider, one with Wolverine/GR and DD) that feature similar storylines, particularly the third one.

By any chance, did you understand that second story? I really wanted to. It says some interesting things. But, between Nocenti's writing and the horribly unclear art, I just didn't understand it.

I'd definitely say that Nocenti's original version- of Typhoid as life-long victim of mental trauma- is the one that should be canon. Aside from being the creator's vision, it was a constant theme in so many of Typhoid's storylines that dispensing with it for a rather random tie-in to Miller's Daredevil run seems very silly. (And I loved Kelly's Deadpool, don't get me wrong). If one really had to keep that part of her history for some reason, I'd retcon it by saying that was a time when the Typhoid personality was dominant, but that Daredevil kicking her out the window somehow caused a resurgence of her psychosis and brought Mary back into conflict or something. Probably best to ignore it, though, as I think that it is reductive and it really diminishes the tragedy of Typhoid's character and the impact of so many of her stories that deal with mental trauma.

Here is my takeaway from her backstory pre-Joe Kelly. Mary was a figure who was subjected to either abuse or attempted abuse when she was a child. That caused her powers to manifest to defend her (she's not called a mutant, but it fits the idea of traumatic events causing powers pre-puberty). This also caused her to fracture into, ultimately, four personalities. She was then experimented on by others who wanted to use her (but not necessarily the same people doing the experiments in that MCP issue). I suppose, to reconcile what came later, she eventually coalesced back into, presumably, the Walker personality, who got kicked out of a window by Matt Murdock, which broke down whatever cure she had.