Pre-Crisis Superboy question

[LordUltimus]

I heard on some message board that pre-crisis, Wonder Woman was an established hero when Clark was still Superboy. I don't think this is true, but I just wanted to confirm.

[Last Son]

If her World War II connections were still canon during the silver/bronze age, then yeah, she probably had been operating in public longer than Superman and most other DC heroes. Same reason Captain America is the first Avenger.

[Jim Kelly]

Up until 1971, Superboy existed in a quasi pre-1938 era. Editor Mort Weisinger maintained that Superman first appeared in 1938--thus any Superboy story had to have happened before that. But this Smallville was like Little Lulu's world. Little Lulu was created in 1935 and her world has this Depression era look to it. Likewise Smallville, sometimes. But then modern conveniences such as TV sets appeared from time to time, too. So you have to take a leap of faith with Superboy and Lulu--just think of these places as existing in worlds of the imagination like Hogwarts.

But in 1971, there was a special feature page that announced this old-timey approach to Superboy was at an end and a new appoach where Superboy was 15 years behind Superman was the new rule. So we don't know exactly what year the Smallville world existed in before that 1971 rule--but after that we can clearly guess what year it is supposed to be (just subtract 15 from the publication date).

How all this relates to Wonder Woman is that Diana came to Man's World in 1941, originally. So for thirty years we can safely say that Superman existed before Wonder Woman. Now Amazing Amazon continuity was fuzzy--and it was either true that she came to Man's World during the Second World War or during the Korean War.

I think once Julius Schwartz took over WONDER WOMAN from Robert Kanigher in 1974, we can assume that Diana now exists on an Earth-One that behaves according to the new rules that govern Superman. So probably Wonder Woman only came to Man's World after Superboy changed his name to Superman. But then those rules would soon not matter. Because first we had the return to Earth-Two stories and then Earth-One Wonder Woman would go through times when her whole history was rebooted--including a Steve Trevor from another Earth.

I mean, given the gods were involved with these continuity fixes, it's entirely possible that the world just forgot that Wonder Woman had existed in the Second World War--just like they forgot Diana Prince was Wonder Woman or Steve Trevor was dead.

As well, Superboy appeared in his own time period infrequently between 1974 and 1980, as most of the time he was hanging out in the 30th century with the Legion.

[TruthAndJustice]

Considering that Diana saved Donna Troy's life 13 years before the Teen Titans formed, and the Titans formed shortly after the JLA formed, then yeah, Wonder Woman made her first public appearance around the time that Superboy made his.

On Earth-One, of course. It was on Earth-Two that Diana was active during WWII and was in the Justice Society. And the Earth-Two Superman was never Superboy.

[llozymandias]

Up until 1971, Superboy existed in a quasi pre-1938 era. Editor Mort Weisinger maintained that Superman first appeared in 1938--thus any Superboy story had to have happened before that. But this Smallville was like Little Lulu's world. Little Lulu was created in 1935 and her world has this Depression era look to it. Likewise Smallville, sometimes. But then modern conveniences such as TV sets appeared from time to time, too. So you have to take a leap of faith with Superboy and Lulu--just think of these places as existing in worlds of the imagination like Hogwarts.

But in 1971, there was a special feature page that announced this old-timey approach to Superboy was at an end and a new appoach where Superboy was 15 years behind Superman was the new rule. So we don't know exactly what year the Smallville world existed in before that 1971 rule--but after that we can clearly guess what year it is supposed to be (just subtract 15 from the publication date).

How all this relates to Wonder Woman is that Diana came to Man's World in 1941, originally. So for thirty years we can safely say that Superman existed before Wonder Woman. Now Amazing Amazon continuity was fuzzy--and it was either true that she came to Man's World during the Second World War or during the Korean War.

I think once Julius Schwartz took over WONDER WOMAN from Robert Kanigher in 1974, we can assume that Diana now exists on an Earth-One that behaves according to the new rules that govern Superman. So probably Wonder Woman only came to Man's World after Superboy changed his name to Superman. But then those rules would soon not matter. Because first we had the return to Earth-Two stories and then Earth-One Wonder Woman would go through times when her whole history was rebooted--including a Steve Trevor from another Earth.

I mean, given the gods were involved with these continuity fixes, it's entirely possible that the world just forgot that Wonder Woman had existed in the Second World War--just like they forgot Diana Prince was Wonder Woman or Steve Trevor was dead.

As well, Superboy appeared in his own time period infrequently between 1974 and 1980, as most of the time he was hanging out in the 30th century with the Legion.

In the early-mid 80s, there was a Superbaby story where Kal met Zatara. In this story Zatara was at the beginning of his career. At that point he had not met any super people. Then later during coie (All-Star Squadron #50, I think) Zatara left Earth-2, & ended up on Earth-1.

[llozymandias]

Up until 1971, Superboy existed in a quasi pre-1938 era. Editor Mort Weisinger maintained that Superman first appeared in 1938--thus any Superboy story had to have happened before that. But this Smallville was like Little Lulu's world. Little Lulu was created in 1935 and her world has this Depression era look to it. Likewise Smallville, sometimes. But then modern conveniences such as TV sets appeared from time to time, too. So you have to take a leap of faith with Superboy and Lulu--just think of these places as existing in worlds of the imagination like Hogwarts.

But in 1971, there was a special feature page that announced this old-timey approach to Superboy was at an end and a new appoach where Superboy was 15 years behind Superman was the new rule. So we don't know exactly what year the Smallville world existed in before that 1971 rule--but after that we can clearly guess what year it is supposed to be (just subtract 15 from the publication date).

How all this relates to Wonder Woman is that Diana came to Man's World in 1941, originally. So for thirty years we can safely say that Superman existed before Wonder Woman. Now Amazing Amazon continuity was fuzzy--and it was either true that she came to Man's World during the Second World War or during the Korean War.

I think once Julius Schwartz took over WONDER WOMAN from Robert Kanigher in 1974, we can assume that Diana now exists on an Earth-One that behaves according to the new rules that govern Superman. So probably Wonder Woman only came to Man's World after Superboy changed his name to Superman. But then those rules would soon not matter. Because first we had the return to Earth-Two stories and then Earth-One Wonder Woman would go through times when her whole history was rebooted--including a Steve Trevor from another Earth.

I mean, given the gods were involved with these continuity fixes, it's entirely possible that the world just forgot that Wonder Woman had existed in the Second World War--just like they forgot Diana Prince was Wonder Woman or Steve Trevor was dead.

As well, Superboy appeared in his own time period infrequently between 1974 and 1980, as most of the time he was hanging out in the 30th century with the Legion.

It's funny that that rule (Superboy is always 15 years ago) was meant to "explain" why the characters are not getting older. 1938 was (in 1971) 33 years ago, making Lois
& Clark at least 54 years old. In the long run that rule made Superman's world even less realistic. I would have left the Superboy time frame as it was pre-71. Would have simply admitted that (for whatever reason) there are characters who are ageing at super-slow rates. That is if they are ageing at all.

[superduperman]

In the early-mid 80s, there was a Superbaby story where Kal met Zatara. In this story Zatara was at the beginning of his career. At that point he had not met any super people. Then later during coie (All-Star Squadron #50, I think) Zatara left Earth-2, & ended up on Earth-1.

I have that story and just assumed it was the Earth 1 Zattara. Supposedly every character has a counterpart on the other Earth.

[Jon Clark]

I have that story and just assumed it was the Earth 1 Zattara. Supposedly every character has a counterpart on the other Earth.

Blame Roy Thomas . He wanted every Golden Age character available for his All-Star Squadron, but no one realized that some had been established as existing on other Earths than E2. Superman had used the Guardian with the Newsboy Legion on Earth One. Zatanna and Hal Jordan II (Air Wave) were both Earth-1 children of Golden Age characters. The Freedom Fighters were on Earth-X. But to make it all work Roy felt he had to keep tossing in these migrations as if only Earth 2 could have these characters.

I guess we should be glad that Roy never got around to telling us that the E2 Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman had somehow crossed over.

And excluding the origin of Wonder Girl is there any other evidence that Diana was active alongside or before Superboy. I'm pretty sure we had Superboy meet Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman and Hal Jordan as teens. Did we ever se any Kal/Diana encounters either with her as a teen or as an adult while he was Superboy?

[Jim Kelly]

Given that Roy Thomas introduced these screwy multiple Earth migrations so close to the onset of COIE--and likewise with the Dinah Drake is her daughter lunacy in JLA--I don't take them seriously. Maybe these stories exist in their own continuity bubble, the same way that stories immediately after COIE exist in a continuity bubble prior to reboots coming into effect.

Anyway, just because a later writer introduces a new idea, that doesn't mean his story has the authority to change pre-existing stories.

I don't think there ever was a story that had Wonder Girl (Diana) meeting Superboy (Clark). And even if she had, Wonder Woman's adventures were so mixed-up that it's hard to know what would actually count as official Earth-One continuity. She had all those impossible tales and stories set during the "Golden Age" and adventures that could just be the gods messing up her mind.

And--not of any importance, except that it involves both Wonder Woman and Superboy--there was the reprint title in 1975, FOUR STAR SPECTACULAR, which had a changing line-up of stars in its short run. But two of those stars were always Wonder Woman and Superbody. I bought all six issues--because I liked reprints--but it seemed random that they insisted on using Wonder Woman and Superboy stories. I think if there had been a Superboy and Wonder Woman team-up story, they would have used it in that title--since it would fill half the four star quota for the issue.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I have that story and just assumed it was the Earth 1 Zattara. Supposedly every character has a counterpart on the other Earth.

There's no evidence that that's true. I mean, there may be a superhero who used the same name, but Al Pratt/Atom of Earth-2 is not a "counterpart" of Ray Palmer/Atom of Earth-1 in any meaningful sense. We have no idea if there was an Al Pratt on Earth-1 during the WW II era, and we never saw a Ray Palmer of Earth-2 during the current day.

There might be counterparts - a Zatara of Earth-1 who was born at the same time and had the same powers as Zatara of Earth-2.

That seemed likely, because we knew there was an Earth-1 Zatara, who was active before the Justice League of America, because his daughter Zatana was looking for him as of Hawkman #4 (Nov. 1964). And readers familiar with the Golden Age would suspect there was a Zatara of Earth-2 once Earth-2 had been introduced (Flash #123, Sept. 1961), because Earth-2 seemed to include "the Golden Age of DC Comics."

But in fact we didn't know much about Earth-2 for a long time - we only saw a little bit of it, and a few characters from it, and people just assumed it was identical to the Golden Age of DC Comics. For a long time I remember not being sure it even included a GA Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman.

Roy Thomas seemed to be a little sensitive about exact duplicates of his GA superheroes, so he started writing these "migration" stories to combine them. So, for example, Zatara was an Earth-2 character who migrated to Earth-1 and had a daughter, Zatanna, there. I'm not exactly sure what was accomplished by these stories; for me they made things more complicated rather than less. But if we take them at face value, there was no counterpart of the Earth-2 Zatara on Earth-1. (Or, if there was, he played no role in any story. The Zatara we saw on Earth-1 was the Earth-2 Zatara.)

Earth-1 and Earth-2 had very different histories, and I don't know of any cosmic entity forcing every character on one to have a counterpart on the other.

Was there a counterpart (superhero or otherwise) on Earth-1 of, for example, Libby Lawrence/Liberty Bell of Earth-2? Was there a counterpart (ditto) on Earth-2 of Ted Kord/Blue Beetle of Earth-1? If there was, we never saw them, and I don't have an a priori reason to think they existed.

Of course, once Crisis on Infinite Earths happens, this whole conversation becomes moot...