Spider-Title Placements in The Top 100 For January 2018

[bob.schoonover]

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I mean, he's brought back after twenty years of basically nothing, and yeah, I have no problem acknowledging that Clone Conspiracy didn't do Ben any favors. But I don't think it really changed a whole lot. Were some fans turned off by his portrayal enough to not buy his solo? Obviously. But how many of these specific fans actually exist? I don't think there are five thousand disgruntled fans demanding a better Ben book. Most just don't care.

At this point, a Bucky-level return would've been the only thing that vaulted Ben back into the spotlight, and those kinds of stories don't happen every day.

SNIP
-Pav, who is also aware that Ben was supposed to be brought back in Spider-Island instead of Kaine...

I might quibble slightly with your framing (that they didn't do the title favors but it didn't change much). While not expecting a Bucky-level return of Ben, it's certainly possible they could have put the title in a better position to be successful. The creative team is, at a minimum, solid. It was unclear at the outset (from solicitations), though, if Ben was going to be an evil villain, a character trying to redeem himself, or a return to the Ben some of us remember from 20 years ago. A Clone Conspiracy story that was both better and created an easy-to-understand thesis for Scarlet Spider might have gotten more initial interest, allowing the creative team an actual opportunity to keep people around.

In the interest of fairness, I'll make the counter argument that Spider Woman basically had that exact set up coming out of Spider Verse (for a better known character) and only got 23 issues (27 total, but 4 were part of SV).

[WebLurker]

Perhaps, but alienating a percentage (likely a large one) of the finite number of preexisting fans he did have in no way helped matters. For example, I was very excited when I learned through the rumor mill Ben would return but when I saw how he returned basically becoming a messed up villainous psychopath, it killed my interest in the character's future adventures.

Hypothetical question: Is it possible that Ben Reilly needed an overhaul for the character to have a purpose? As I understand it, in the '90s, he wasn't that different from Peter Parker so didn't really have any purpose when the real deal was brought back.

[Spidey5640]

Not to mention that it was in Spectacular where DeWolff was killed, which started a darker era of Spidey comics, so back then Spectacular was as much as a big deal as ASM (At least during that era).

yes, awesome arc, remember it well. That was certainly a golden period for Spidey, the two competing titles pushing one another plus the occasional great issue or arc in Marvel Team-up that played into the overall Spidey direction. Good times.

[Celgress]

Hypothetical question: Is it possible that Ben Reilly needed an overhaul for the character to have a purpose? As I understand it, in the '90s, he wasn't that different from Peter Parker so didn't really have any purpose when the real deal was brought back.

Nope, the character was unique. The only time he lost that uniqueness was when they made him Spider-Man II once Peter and MJ rode off into the sunset. As Scarlet Spider Ben was his own character with a tragic backstory that made him rootable for being a perpetual underdog struggling to make sense of a life he remembered but that was not his own. He lived five years on the road doing many things even he regretted but that ultimately made him a stronger eventual hero. Plus, he created a damn snappy outfit for himself along with impact webbing.

[Lukmendes]

yes, awesome arc, remember it well. That was certainly a golden period for Spidey, the two competing titles pushing one another plus the occasional great issue or arc in Marvel Team-up that played into the overall Spidey direction. Good times.

Ah, I wasn't aware that Marvel Team Up had influences on ASM and Spectacular, that sounds nice.

Nope, the character was unique. The only time he lost that uniqueness was when they made him Spider-Man II once Peter and MJ rode off into the sunset. As Scarlet Spider Ben was his own character with a tragic backstory that made him rootable for being a perpetual underdog struggling to make sense of a life he remembered but that was not his own. He lived five years on the road doing many things even he regretted but that ultimately made him a stronger eventual hero. Plus, he created a damn snappy outfit for himself along with impact webbing.

Y'know, I always felt like to separate their fighting styles, Ben should be the Spider-Parker with the more varied webs (To have more than just impact webbing), with Spidey being the better fighter (Much more experience, plus Spider-fu), and Kaine the one with the weirder powers (Because he had The Queen's and The Other's upgrades), too bad all 3 are more or less the same nowadays, most different one being Kaine since he lacks Spider-Sense and has that stealth suit, it's a real waste.

[Pav]

Nope, the character was unique. The only time he lost that uniqueness was when they made him Spider-Man II once Peter and MJ rode off into the sunset. As Scarlet Spider Ben was his own character with a tragic backstory that made him rootable for being a perpetual underdog struggling to make sense of a life he remembered but that was not his own. He lived five years on the road doing many things even he regretted but that ultimately made him a stronger eventual hero. Plus, he created a damn snappy outfit for himself along with impact webbing.

See, and while I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment in the specifics, Celgress, I don't think it's correct to say Ben is unique: his whole deal is that he is a Peter Parker who isn't allowed to be Peter Parker. He woke up one day and found that his life wasn't really his to claim, y'know?

Yes, life on the road certainly had an effect on him, as did his belief that he was a clone and the "revelation" that gave life to his deepest hope: being "real" after all. Nevertheless, these things happened to (a) Peter Parker. As you said, this made him a greater underdog as the Scarlet Spider than even Spidey himself, which is why I (and you?) loved his story so much.

This perspective is why I didn't have much of an issue with how Ben was brought back. For the first time, Ben KNOWS he isn't the real Peter - yet he can't help be himself, just the same as you and I. The kind of life he decides to build for himself is of the utmost fascination to me. What does a Peter who can't be Peter aaaand now knows he isn't actually Peter do with himself? Does he fight his very nature? Does he build his own moral code? Great stuff to think about.

-Pav, who hopes we get many more issues to see it play out...

[Celgress]

See, and while I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment in the specifics, Celgress, I don't think it's correct to say Ben is unique: his whole deal is that he is a Peter Parker who isn't allowed to be Peter Parker. He woke up one day and found that his life wasn't really his to claim, y'know?

Yes, life on the road certainly had an effect on him, as did his belief that he was a clone and the "revelation" that gave life to his deepest hope: being "real" after all. Nevertheless, these things happened to (a) Peter Parker. As you said, this made him a greater underdog as the Scarlet Spider than even Spidey himself, which is why I (and you?) loved his story so much.

This perspective is why I didn't have much of an issue with how Ben was brought back. For the first time, Ben KNOWS he isn't the real Peter - yet he can't help being himself, just the same as you and I. The kind of life he decides to build for himself is of the utmost fascination to me. What does a Peter who can't be Peter do with himself?

-Pav, who figures we'll see plenty of rebellion...

We'll have to agree to disagree Pav. Reformed villains are a dime a dozen. I don't like reading about them. In Ben's case, I preferred to read about the guy who stayed good in spite of all the crap the world dumped on him including the death of his greatest dream. That is my Scarlet Spider, not a wanna-be Jackal who is little better than a self-deluded psychopath.

[Pav]

We'll have to agree to disagree Pav. Reformed villains are a dime a dozen. I don't like reading about them. In Ben's case, I preferred to read about the guy who stayed good in spite of all the crap the world dumped on him including the death of his greatest dream. That is my Scarlet Spider, not a wanna-be Jackal who is little better than a self-deluded psychopath.

The book isn't really giving us that, though. Ben is fighting to be the man he knows he can be, despite suffering dramatic trauma. You see a self-deluded psychopath, but I see a man who had a mental breakdown due to torture, which then twisted his morality. And all traces of the Jackal's persona / voice are gone. It's just Ben trying to atone for his mistakes now.

But that makes him fighting to be his old self and be a good man all the more heroic.

-Pav, who wants to persuade you instead of agreeing to disagree...

[Celgress]

The book isn't really giving us that, though. Ben is fighting to be the man he knows he can be, despite suffering dramatic trauma. You see a self-deluded psychopath, but I see a man who had a mental breakdown due to torture, which then twisted his morality. And all traces of the Jackal's persona / voice are gone. It's just Ben trying to atone for his mistakes now.

But that makes him fighting to be his old self and be a good man all the more heroic.

-Pav, who wants to persuade you instead of agreeing to disagree...

Sorry, I just have no interest in that and I know plenty of people who feel the character development detour was in poor taste. To each his own. I'm just telling you how I feel and other people I know who were once fans of the character feel and why they do not buy a book they otherwise would have.

[frizb]

Amazing Spider-Man doing great in sales.
Something that even gets reflected in Amazing Spider-Man Venom Inc Omega.
And cool that Venom is doing well in sales as well.
Spider-Man and Deadpool are a comic book that i thought would be selling way more due the popularity of Spider-Man and Deadpool and Chris Bachalo illustrating this series.

Chris Bacalo is one reason for me to not like it. His hands are worse than Leifeld's feet. Didn't like him on X-Men or Dr Strange. Everyone has different tastes I guess.

[DanMad1977]

Chris Bacalo is one reason for me to not like it. His hands are worse than Leifeld's feet. Didn't like him on X-Men or Dr Strange. Everyone has different tastes I guess.

...and Humberto Ramos. Everytime these two pop up on a book my motivation to read it sinks like the Titanic.

[Steven Caldwell]

Ben Reilly was the man with long hair, a Shaggy beard, riding a motorcycle, and working odd jobs reluctantly having to use his powers to help people based upon the famous old Ben saying. I think a lot of people wanted the Ben Reilly back who was in The Lost Years. That was such a great book!

[Celgress]

Ben Reilly was the man with long hair, a Shaggy beard, riding a motorcycle, and working odd jobs reluctantly having to use his powers to help people based upon the famous old Ben saying. I think a lot of people wanted the Ben Reilly back who was in The Lost Years. That was such a great book!

I agree with everything you wrote.

[Scott Taylor]

Yah, although I appreciate Scarlet Spider its mainly because PAD is such a great writer that I can't resist it. The way they brought back Ben, as a villain, and then having him slow crawl his way back to being a hero is a dumpster fire way to treat a once-beloved character. Deconstruction has been in ever since House of M, but its getting to be a very tired story technique to use with good-aligned characters.

[WebLurker]

Nope, the character was unique. The only time he lost that uniqueness was when they made him Spider-Man II once Peter and MJ rode off into the sunset. As Scarlet Spider Ben was his own character with a tragic backstory that made him rootable for being a perpetual underdog struggling to make sense of a life he remembered but that was not his own. He lived five years on the road doing many things even he regretted but that ultimately made him a stronger eventual hero. Plus, he created a damn snappy outfit for himself along with impact webbing.

Okay, then.