Would a book like 'X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills' be made today?

[johnnybourbon]

Maybe but maybe not. I mean, the religious right was quite active during the time the original was published and I don't remember there being a huge backlash against this specific book.

I cant speak to the reception that this got at the time but an important factor is that Claremont was careful not to demonize or misrepresent religion as a whole or the religious themselves in the process. He makes a point to represent religious tolerance as well as have positive religious characters who the reader can relate to in Kurt and Kitty. So anyone who is religious is less likely to have a knee jerk response and can see that he is separating mainstream Christianity from toxic Christianity or maybe whats more accurately a "mis-use" of Christianity.

I feel like this is what a lot of writers are failing to do right now so you have instances where readers feel like the bad guy is made to represent them despite their more normal/tolerant positions. I dont think anyone reaching for an XMen comic relates to the politics of Stryker but its important for the writer to understand that and translate that understanding to their audience so they arent left there thinking "wait is this Stryker character supposed to be me?!? F___ You Claremont!". Which is really a message that needs to be related well to the entire audience if the story is to open a positive dialogue.

[pugbuddy]

Yes, it definitely can be made today. But it would most likely be badly written and tone-deaf.(and not because of Disney)

Exactly. It would be even more heavy handed.

[Tazpocalapse]

Somebody might have stopped Claremont from using the N-Word today. But Marvel is publishing political books - look at Ms. Marvel's arcs that deal with Basic Becky or Hydra. Look at Nick Spencer's Captain America: Sam Wilson book. I think the better question would be whether Marvel would publish an X-Book in OGN format than whether it would be political.

Actually if you look at the lack of a black american male on the X-men historically, it should not be used in a X-book today. Ii's not like the X-men have featured Black american male mutants on the team.

Yes if you can not even put a black male character in your franchise in a role that does not feature them as wallpaper. Than your message is lacking. Claremont had the excuse of the X-verse being smaller.

Why attempt to make that point using the N-word when your franchise does not have one black male american on the team?

[milton75]

Funny you should mention this. I was just reading the history of Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ. Yes, "God Loves, Man Kills" could be written and published today, but the readership's response to it would be much more heated and vocal. You can't attack the belief or the belief system, but you can blow holes in the wrongful acts and behaviors caused by said belief system.

Do you mean "you can't attack the belief or the belief system" in that it is practically difficult to do so because of the backlash it causes, or that it is morally problematic for us to attack belief systems?

In my view, one of the greatest tricks that religious organisations have managed to pull off is to contextualise their dogma as something that should be reserved and protected from the usual cut and thrust of debate that exists elsewhere in society. While I respect the right of individuals to believe in whatever they want, I do not necessarily respect their beliefs in of themselves. I don't ascribe "special status" to religious beliefs, and would personally welcome the opportunities for more free and honest discussions on them.

It may well be that if a comic like GLMK was released today it would deal with it in a heavy-handed manner. On the other hand it may offer an incisive perspective that opens up the issue to some that have previously not considered it. I would say we deal with each case on its own merits and hopefully avoid being scared off by a vocal contingent who cannot stand for any suggestion that the bubble they exist within might be pricked.

[Mike_Murdock]

Actually if you look at the lack of a black american male on the X-men historically, it should not be used in a X-book today. Ii's not like the X-men have featured Black american male mutants on the team.

Yes if you can not even put a black male character in your franchise in a role that does not feature them as wallpaper. Than your message is lacking. Claremont had the excuse of the X-verse being smaller.

Why attempt to make that point using the N-word when your franchise does not have one black male american on the team?

Why are you specifying male? Wouldn't a black female character also be relevant to this discussion?

[yaddle]

Why are you specifying male? Wouldn't a black female character also be relevant to this discussion?

Ororo is black and female? I'm not sure why he specified the "american" part.

[ed2962]

Ororo is black and female? I'm not sure why he specified the "american" part.

Probably because at that time you had Bobby in New Mutants but he was originally was supposed to be black Brazilian. Synch, Bishop, etc came later.

[Midnight_v]

Why are you specifying male? Wouldn't a black female character also be relevant to this discussion?

Well they kill black male mutants ... a lot...
But more importantly is... america has a fear of the "black male" and his sexuality thats reflected in everything always has been. One of the big reasons castration
was always important in lynching. Pretty much kill or emasculate has always been the way.

I never thought i'd say this but... "white-cis-male-patriarchy" traditionally veiws women as conquests which is why you see every flavor of woman on the x-teams, but you're looking at a world through
the eyes of Captain Kirk.

I think that a pretty big diversion though... the "Whataboutism" is problematic. Someone brings up a group people don't want to talk about or acknowledge and the
easiest thing to divert the topic is to say "Whatabout... !"

So the reason is because there is a great fear and hatred of Heterosexual African-American males thats always been there and permeates to this day.
Ororo has had Forge, Black panther, and wolverine... and calysto *wink*.
but... who was Bishops last girlfriend. Which X-lady did he date? We literally just had an entire book about Icemans sexuality, Gambit and Rogue is a book on the stands right now.... but Bishop...?

They don't even pretend to do right by african-american males. The X-books that is. Other marvel properties have their moments here and there.

Actually if you look at the lack of a black american male on the X-men historically, it should not be used in a X-book today. Ii's not like the X-men have featured Black american male mutants on the team.

Yes if you can not even put a black male character in your franchise in a role that does not feature them as wallpaper. Than your message is lacking. Claremont had the excuse of the X-verse being smaller.

Why attempt to make that point using the N-word when your franchise does not have one black male american on the team?

Yeah... trying to equate Mutie, with the N-work flew but if they had used the K-work for Jewish people... would that have gotten to the stands? Nope. Would Stan have nodded and thought
"Exactly! Perfect point, excelsior!" Nope.

The X-books have have problems they need to fix. The Emasculation of the black male is one of the plagues there I'm coming to find.

I'd like to see God Love Man Kills, LEVEL of political involvement in a story, but I'm aware the X-books are only going to tell one story today, and its not going to be a brave one.

Tell a story about 2-3 Cops beating a Black Kid... when his mutant power flares up injuring one and killing the other.

Basically, what if Freddie Gray, or Trayvon Martin would have been mutants...

Then have the X-men/Magneto debate. Along with showing the people who thrive off this type of event in the black community.
Have the Black kid decide right then he doesn't want to be a symbol for anyone's agenda, DOES NOT HATE POLICE OFFICERS after and says
'It was those particular men, there are good and bad men in every realm and I know there are brave cops out out there doing the right thing
and there are evil cops doing the opposite... just like with mutants"

Would like to join the X-men. But he's a wanted man. Doesn't want to join the "Extremist Mutant team" but he's a wanted man... who is NOT going to get a fair trial. . .

No deformity allowed, Flying brick or Bullet proof + energy protection of some kind able to solo/draw Mags/Jean/Storm... Love interest with an X-lady or two.
Have him say on the topic of "n-word" and "mutie",
"I've been black my whole life... I've been a "mutie" for one month, and if it wasn't for the latter the former would have gotten me killed the first day.
No, its not the same... because you guys have POWER. Not having it is what makes people oppressed."

Great stories write themselves. Cowardice and indifference, and "Whataboutism" keeps them from being written.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well they kill black male mutants ... a lot...
But more importantly is... america has a fear of the "black male" and his sexuality thats reflected in everything always has been. One of the big reasons castration
was always important in lynching. Pretty much kill or emasculate has always been the way.

I never thought i'd say this but... "white-cis-male-patriarchy" traditionally veiws women as conquests which is why you see every flavor of woman on the x-teams, but you're looking at a world through
the eyes of Captain Kirk.

I think that a pretty big diversion though... the "Whataboutism" is problematic. Someone brings up a group people don't want to talk about or acknowledge and the
easiest thing to divert the topic is to say "Whatabout... !"

So the reason is because there is a great fear and hatred of Heterosexual African-American males thats always been there and permeates to this day.
Ororo has had Forge, Black panther, and wolverine... and calysto *wink*.
but... who was Bishops last girlfriend. Which X-lady did he date? We literally just had an entire book about Icemans sexuality, Gambit and Rogue is a book on the stands right now.... but Bishop...?

They don't even pretend to do right by african-american males. The X-books that is. Other marvel properties have their moments here and there.


Yeah... trying to equate Mutie, with the N-work flew but if they had used the K-work for Jewish people... would that have gotten to the stands? Nope. Would Stan have nodded and thought
"Exactly! Perfect point, excelsior!" Nope.

The X-books have have problems they need to fix. The Emasculation of the black male is one of the plagues there I'm coming to find.

I'd like to see God Love Man Kills, LEVEL of political involvement in a story, but I'm aware the X-books are only going to tell one story today, and its not going to be a brave one.

Tell a story about 2-3 Cops beating a Black Kid... when his mutant power flares up injuring one and killing the other.

Basically, what if Freddie Gray, or Trayvon Martin would have been mutants...

Then have the X-men/Magneto debate. Along with showing the people who thrive off this type of event in the black community.
Have the Black kid decide right then he doesn't want to be a symbol for anyone's agenda, DOES NOT HATE POLICE OFFICERS after and says
'It was those particular men, there are good and bad men in every realm and I know there are brave cops out out there doing the right thing
and there are evil cops doing the opposite... just like with mutants"

Would like to join the X-men. But he's a wanted man. Doesn't want to join the "Extremist Mutant team" but he's a wanted man... who is NOT going to get a fair trial. . .

No deformity allowed, Flying brick or Bullet proof + energy protection of some kind able to solo/draw Mags/Jean/Storm... Love interest with an X-lady or two.
Have him say on the topic of "n-word" and "mutie",
"I've been black my whole life... I've been a "mutie" for one month, and if it wasn't for the latter the former would have gotten me killed the first day.
No, its not the same... because you guys have POWER. Not having it is what makes people oppressed."

Great stories write themselves. Cowardice and indifference, and "Whataboutism" keeps them from being written.

That would be a great story to write, and could be an excellent treatise on some of the more hypocritical or (at least) narratively inconsistent aspects of the X-Men franchise --- the marginalization of black males in particular and people of color in general in a series based on fighting to overcome bigotry and xenophobia, however allegorical, the uncomfortable fact that most of the X-Men can pass for regular, if especially physically attractive and fit, humans and sequester themselves in a mansion loaded with extremely advanced technology to live an otherwise comfortable existence. I would say, though, that superpowers unfortunately don't translate into political power, especially when political power is wielded largely by those who are actively antagonistic toward those with superpowers, or else the X-Men really would have a much easier time of things. Beyond that, you do have a really great premise here and it's one I'd love to see in the actual comics one day.

[Kaled]

I think it could be told today but I think it would take on more of a political slant rather than religious slant. When God Loves, Man Kills came out it was at the start of the rise of people like TV evangelist Jim Baker and just a few years after Jim Jones. Today religion itself stands out rather than the people in it like it was in the late 70's and early 80's. Reverend Stryker was meant to be a one off adversary and I think today it would be the start of a major enemy of the X-Men.

[ed2962]

Well they kill black male mutants ... a lot...
But more importantly is... america has a fear of the "black male" and his sexuality thats reflected in everything always has been. One of the big reasons castration
was always important in lynching. Pretty much kill or emasculate has always been the way.

I never thought i'd say this but... "white-cis-male-patriarchy" traditionally veiws women as conquests which is why you see every flavor of woman on the x-teams, but you're looking at a world through
the eyes of Captain Kirk.

I think that a pretty big diversion though... the "Whataboutism" is problematic. Someone brings up a group people don't want to talk about or acknowledge and the
easiest thing to divert the topic is to say "Whatabout... !"

So the reason is because there is a great fear and hatred of Heterosexual African-American males thats always been there and permeates to this day.
Ororo has had Forge, Black panther, and wolverine... and calysto *wink*.
but... who was Bishops last girlfriend. Which X-lady did he date? We literally just had an entire book about Icemans sexuality, Gambit and Rogue is a book on the stands right now.... but Bishop...?

They don't even pretend to do right by african-american males. The X-books that is. Other marvel properties have their moments here and there.


Yeah... trying to equate Mutie, with the N-work flew but if they had used the K-work for Jewish people... would that have gotten to the stands? Nope. Would Stan have nodded and thought
"Exactly! Perfect point, excelsior!" Nope.

The X-books have have problems they need to fix. The Emasculation of the black male is one of the plagues there I'm coming to find.

I'd like to see God Love Man Kills, LEVEL of political involvement in a story, but I'm aware the X-books are only going to tell one story today, and its not going to be a brave one.

Tell a story about 2-3 Cops beating a Black Kid... when his mutant power flares up injuring one and killing the other.

Basically, what if Freddie Gray, or Trayvon Martin would have been mutants...

Then have the X-men/Magneto debate. Along with showing the people who thrive off this type of event in the black community.
Have the Black kid decide right then he doesn't want to be a symbol for anyone's agenda, DOES NOT HATE POLICE OFFICERS after and says
'It was those particular men, there are good and bad men in every realm and I know there are brave cops out out there doing the right thing
and there are evil cops doing the opposite... just like with mutants"

Would like to join the X-men. But he's a wanted man. Doesn't want to join the "Extremist Mutant team" but he's a wanted man... who is NOT going to get a fair trial. . .

No deformity allowed, Flying brick or Bullet proof + energy protection of some kind able to solo/draw Mags/Jean/Storm... Love interest with an X-lady or two.
Have him say on the topic of "n-word" and "mutie",
"I've been black my whole life... I've been a "mutie" for one month, and if it wasn't for the latter the former would have gotten me killed the first day.
No, its not the same... because you guys have POWER. Not having it is what makes people oppressed."

Great stories write themselves. Cowardice and indifference, and "Whataboutism" keeps them from being written.

Bishop did have a romance with Deathbird although it ended bitterly. And Synch briefly dated M. But having said that, your larger point definitely stands.

[Mike_Murdock]

I think it could be told today but I think it would take on more of a political slant rather than religious slant. When God Loves, Man Kills came out it was at the start of the rise of people like TV evangelist Jim Baker and just a few years after Jim Jones. Today religion itself stands out rather than the people in it like it was in the late 70's and early 80's. Reverend Stryker was meant to be a one off adversary and I think today it would be the start of a major enemy of the X-Men.

I'm not entirely sure. Mutant rights, even then, were used as allegory for gay rights. The religious opposition there is still prominent and would be fertile metaphor grounds.

[ZeonsSilverStar]

Well they kill black male mutants ... a lot...
But more importantly is... america has a fear of the "black male" and his sexuality thats reflected in everything always has been. One of the big reasons castration
was always important in lynching. Pretty much kill or emasculate has always been the way.

I never thought i'd say this but... "white-cis-male-patriarchy" traditionally veiws women as conquests which is why you see every flavor of woman on the x-teams, but you're looking at a world through
the eyes of Captain Kirk.

I think that a pretty big diversion though... the "Whataboutism" is problematic. Someone brings up a group people don't want to talk about or acknowledge and the
easiest thing to divert the topic is to say "Whatabout... !"

So the reason is because there is a great fear and hatred of Heterosexual African-American males thats always been there and permeates to this day.
Ororo has had Forge, Black panther, and wolverine... and calysto *wink*.
but... who was Bishops last girlfriend. Which X-lady did he date? We literally just had an entire book about Icemans sexuality, Gambit and Rogue is a book on the stands right now.... but Bishop...?

They don't even pretend to do right by african-american males. The X-books that is. Other marvel properties have their moments here and there.


Yeah... trying to equate Mutie, with the N-work flew but if they had used the K-work for Jewish people... would that have gotten to the stands? Nope. Would Stan have nodded and thought
"Exactly! Perfect point, excelsior!" Nope.

The X-books have have problems they need to fix. The Emasculation of the black male is one of the plagues there I'm coming to find.

I'd like to see God Love Man Kills, LEVEL of political involvement in a story, but I'm aware the X-books are only going to tell one story today, and its not going to be a brave one.

Tell a story about 2-3 Cops beating a Black Kid... when his mutant power flares up injuring one and killing the other.

Basically, what if Freddie Gray, or Trayvon Martin would have been mutants...

Then have the X-men/Magneto debate. Along with showing the people who thrive off this type of event in the black community.
Have the Black kid decide right then he doesn't want to be a symbol for anyone's agenda, DOES NOT HATE POLICE OFFICERS after and says
'It was those particular men, there are good and bad men in every realm and I know there are brave cops out out there doing the right thing
and there are evil cops doing the opposite... just like with mutants"

Would like to join the X-men. But he's a wanted man. Doesn't want to join the "Extremist Mutant team" but he's a wanted man... who is NOT going to get a fair trial. . .

No deformity allowed, Flying brick or Bullet proof + energy protection of some kind able to solo/draw Mags/Jean/Storm... Love interest with an X-lady or two.
Have him say on the topic of "n-word" and "mutie",
"I've been black my whole life... I've been a "mutie" for one month, and if it wasn't for the latter the former would have gotten me killed the first day.
No, its not the same... because you guys have POWER. Not having it is what makes people oppressed."

Great stories write themselves. Cowardice and indifference, and "Whataboutism" keeps them from being written.

Okay I just want to say wow. This sounds like an X-Men story truly worth reading if ever it were written.

[JKtheMac]

By my reckoning what we are asking here is do Marvel books still ask serious questions in interesting ways. Clearly the answer is yes.

Hydra Cap and the Wakandan monarchy under threat both spring to mind. And there lies a problem. If GLMK was written today most of these forums would probably hate it, youtube reviewers would attack it, there would be pointless twitter arguments about things that were not even part of the story, appreciation threads would never forgive them and generally everyone would use it as an example of how politics shouldn’t be in comics.

[Sandfall]

Stephen Hawkings once said if time travel was possible how come there are no time travellers here already.
if god loves, man kills can be written today why is it not been written today?