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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member LP22's Avatar
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    Default Did Chris Claremont hate cyclops?

    I read that back in the 80s after jean was resurrected in x-factor Scott left his wife and went back for Jean and because of that Chris hated Scott and wanted to make Jean and Wolverine a thing ever since just to shit on Cyclops.


    So my question is,was that stupid love triangle that polluted scott for years was because of claremont immaturity and being salty at scott?

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Creators, writers, artists --- they don't HATE the characters. STAHP.

  3. #3
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    While it was a bad idea to have Scott leave Maddie like that, I never got the feeling that Chris hated Cyclops.
    I've seen your end and it starts with you challenging me.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    If Chris hated anyone- it would be those who went and changed his plans - resurrecting Jean etc.
    My Favourite Quotes:

    Emma/Kitty: "This children, is Kitty Pryde, who apparently feels the need to make a grand entrance/I'm sorry. I was busy remembering to put on all my clothes/So gushingly glad you could join us"

    Emma: "I love what you've done with the place, Kitty. It's like every thirteen year-old girl's dream. Where do you keep the unicorns? And, oh look, a redhead. How novel"

    Psylocke: "If you don't get that glass out of my face, I'm going to jam it sideways straight up your bum"

  5. #5
    Mighty Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    I read that back in the 80s after jean was resurrected in x-factor Scott left his wife and went back for Jean and because of that Chris hated Scott and wanted to make Jean and Wolverine a thing ever since just to shit on Cyclops.


    So my question is,was that stupid love triangle that polluted scott for years was because of claremont immaturity and being salty at scott?

    I don't think Claremont hated Cyclops but i do think he is/was a writer that is very big on characterization. As such, once Cyclops left his wife and child to be with Jean he became a man that would abandon his wife and child. That in of itself expands or changes the morals of a character because it becomes if Cyclops would do that, what else would he do. And i think that is where the change with Claremont/Cyclops comes in. It took a bit of innocence and nobility away from Scott IMO and rightfully so.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    I read that back in the 80s after jean was resurrected in x-factor Scott left his wife and went back for Jean and because of that Chris hated Scott and wanted to make Jean and Wolverine a thing ever since just to shit on Cyclops.


    So my question is,was that stupid love triangle that polluted scott for years was because of claremont immaturity and being salty at scott?
    Claremont's Woke?

  7. #7
    Incredible Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    I read that back in the 80s after jean was resurrected in x-factor Scott left his wife and went back for Jean and because of that Chris hated Scott and wanted to make Jean and Wolverine a thing ever since just to shit on Cyclops.


    So my question is,was that stupid love triangle that polluted scott for years was because of claremont immaturity and being salty at scott?
    Cyclops left his wife and child because of editorial mandate; Claremont wanted Cyclops to remain retired with Madelyne Pryor.

    It was the same stupid logic of "Hey lets get the 05, our least interesting characters, back together!" that resulted in those walking plot holes.

    edit: Oh, "because of that" not "because", I misread.
    Last edited by Nazrel; 02-12-2018 at 07:17 AM.
    It's all about the verisimilitude; context is king.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member CuteClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    I read that back in the 80s after jean was resurrected in x-factor Scott left his wife and went back for Jean and because of that Chris hated Scott and wanted to make Jean and Wolverine a thing ever since just to shit on Cyclops.


    So my question is,was that stupid love triangle that polluted scott for years was because of claremont immaturity and being salty at scott?
    Exactly! For him and Cyclops haters, 'leaving' his wife and son is much worse than committing genocide or be a mass murderer.
    Cyclops should have committed genocide. He would be loved by all.
    Yeah, baby, Cyclops was right! Cyclops was right yet again! Cyclops is always right!! So bring RightClops back.

  9. #9
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    Creators, writers, artists --- they don't HATE the characters. STAHP.
    Tell that to Gambit fans.

  10. #10
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    What if Emma and Jean get new boyfriends and resurrected Scott hooks up again with a redeemed Madelyne Pryor?
    Although I guess Marvel wouldnt like having an heroic Jean clone around

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    I think you're overreacting.

    Of course do not agree with What happened to Cyclops and think it was something out of the character but it's hard to understand how things turned out at the time and how the idea was born or how much creative freedom they had at the time or editor's oversight.

    A lot that happened in the 80's and 90's in stories can not be analyzed with the vision we have today.

    And it is not as if today still not many absurd happen like for example a hero sell his marriage to the devil and let's not forget Nate and Madelyne or what happened to Carol.And it's extremely normal for writers to give more space to the characters they like while overthrowing those they dislike. Bendis is a good example of this when he is writing a character he likes is totally different from when it is someone he does not feel affection (Clint fans understand what I'm talking about).

    Do not think it reaches the level of hate but clearly some writers have preferences.
    Last edited by Knives; 02-12-2018 at 07:39 AM.

  12. #12
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    If you wish to know more, here's a useful blogpost that collects the pertinent quotes by Claremont on the matter: http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...-x-factor.html

    The context: The editors wanted to bring Jean back so that the original 5 could form X-Factor. At that time, Scott was already married to Madelyn Pryor and had a newborn baby. The editors made this decision without Claremont's input, and he was furious.

    Quote:

    Chris Claremont’s reaction
    “Oh, God! Barry Windsor-Smith and I were coming into the office to plot X-Men #198 (in 1985),” Claremont recalled in Comics Creators On X-Men. “It was a Friday night and (editor) Ann (Nocenti) took us out to dinner and didn’t tell us about X-Factor until it was, like, 6:30-7:00 at night and the office switchboard was already closed. I wanted to call Shooter, but I couldn’t remember his direct line. Ann knew his number, but she wouldn’t tell me. She told me to just sit down, have another drink and relax. I mean, she played me beautifully. Since it was Friday, I had the whole weekend to go berserk.”

    “I spent the weekend coming up with a whole new set of characters that they could use for X-Factor. I came in Monday morning and pitched the idea of using Jean’s sister Sara and making her a living Cerebro. She not only senses mutants, but has the power to work out what they’ll become. Shooter sat there and said, “That’s a great concept. I think it’s wonderful. If you want to go with it, go with it, but we’re bringing back Jean Grey.””

    “The fact is, Ann did a smart thing. If I had actually gone in to see Shooter on Friday night, I would have quit. I was so pissed off. I couldn’t believe what they did to Cyclops (Scott Summers). He was supposed to be a hero and they had him walking out on his wife and newborn child and not even thinking twice about it.”


    and

    The fate of Cyclops’ wife
    “The original Madelyne (Pryor) storyline was that – at its simplest level – she was that one-in-a-million that just happened to look like Jean (Grey),” Claremont told Seriejournalen.dk. “And the relationship (between her and Scott Summers) was summed up by the moment (in Uncanny X-Men #174, 1983) when Scott says, “Are you Jean?” and she punches him! Because her whole desire was to be loved for herself – not to be loved as the evocation of her boyfriend’s dead sweetheart. (…) But it all got invalidated by the resurrection of Jean Grey in X-Factor #1 (1986).”

    “The original plotline was that Scott marries Madelyne - they have their child, they go off to Alaska. He goes to work for his grandparents. He retires from the X-Men. He’s a reserve member. He’s available for emergencies. He comes back on special occasions – for special fights, but he has a life. He has grown up. (…) Scott was going to move on. Jean was dead, “Get on with your life.” And it was close to being a happy ending. They lived happily ever after – and it was to create the impression that maybe if you come back in ten years other X-Men would have grown up, too. Would Kitty (Pryde) stay with the team forever? Would Nightcrawler? Would any of them? Because that way we could evolve them into new directions - we could bring in new characters. There would be an ongoing sense of renewal and growth and change – in a positive sense.”

    “Then, unfortunately, Jean was resurrected, Scott dumps his wife and kid and goes back to the old girlfriend, so it not only destroys Scott’s character as a hero and as a decent human being – it creates an untenable structural situation: What do we do with Madelyne and the kid?”

    “So ultimately the resolution was: Turn her into the Goblin Queen and kill her off.”


    and

    Back to Cyclops being a cad
    “Jean is marrying Scott, so what’s Scott’s track record to date?” Claremont asked in the Internet interview. “Well, he had a wife. He got married in the mansion, everybody was there, he said, “Till death do you part,” they had a kid, and he walked out on them without a second thought and went to X-Factor. And then for various stupid – and I confess, I had my part in this as well as anyone else – plot reasons didn’t deal with it for a long time. The reason he didn’t deal with it was because he didn’t have a clue what to do with it. I mean, the guy was a cad and a bounder, no ifs, no ands, no buts.”

    “In one fell swoop, he was destroyed as a character, as a heroic. He made a commitment to people and then walked out on them. And for various reasons, not Weezie (Louise Simonson), not me, we never dealt with that. We seem to take what seemed at the time to be the only sensible way out, which was we made Madelyne into the bad – you know, we set up a situation where rather than have Scott face the consequences of his actions, we’d just sort of like kill them all. And everyone forgave Scott, because Madelyne was a bitch anyway. And then they gave the kid away. “Don’t deal with the fact that you have a child, Scott, we’ll just send him away to the future” and - shit happens.”

    “All of this should be an element in the mix. Mistakes or otherwise, this is Scott’s character, this is Jean’s character. (…) There must be a moment where the two of them sit down and address this. “Jean, marry me.” “Why?” “I love you.” “You loved Madelyne.” Pause. “Yeah, well…” “You walked out on her, Scott. You going to walk out on me? Suppose we discover in a year that Madelyne isn’t dead? Suppose I’m Madelyne. Suppose I’m Phoenix. How are you going to deal with that? How am I to trust you? You made a commitment. You did not fulfil it. You abandoned a child.””

    “The onus is not on Jean to prove herself to Scott. She was dead. She got better. He made a commitment to someone. He had to prove that he could make a commitment to her. You can’t just say, “None of this existed, none of this happened, it all goes away.” You have to think, “How does this character deal with it? How does the story deal with it?” Because, by answering those questions, you might find the story going off in a totally different direction that may bring vitality and richness of concept that you never even dreamed of was coming in the door.”

  13. #13
    Peter Scott/Scott Peter SpiderClops's Avatar
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    “The fact is, Ann did a smart thing. If I had actually gone in to see Shooter on Friday night, I would have quit. I was so pissed off. I couldn’t believe what they did to Cyclops (Scott Summers). He was supposed to be a hero and they had him walking out on his wife and newborn child and not even thinking twice about it.
    The fate of Cyclops’ wife
    “The original Madelyne (Pryor) storyline was that – at its simplest level – she was that one-in-a-million that just happened to look like Jean (Grey),” Claremont told Seriejournalen.dk. “And the relationship (between her and Scott Summers) was summed up by the moment (in Uncanny X-Men #174, 1983) when Scott says, “Are you Jean?” and she punches him! Because her whole desire was to be loved for herself – not to be loved as the evocation of her boyfriend’s dead sweetheart. (…) But it all got invalidated by the resurrection of Jean Grey in X-Factor #1 (1986).”
    Ah, Claremont. Thinks that leaving his wife and son makes Scott a horrible person, but doesn't realize that quickly marrying a woman who just happened to look exactly like his dead girlfriend makes him look like an obsessive unhealthy man.

    when Scott says, “Are you Jean?” and she punches him!

    And just for funsies, let's gender-flip the situation here.

    When Scarlet says, "Are you John?" and he punches her!
    Last edited by SpiderClops; 02-12-2018 at 07:48 AM.
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  14. #14
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Mr. Claremont's anger is justified but at the same time he should remember that these are not his creations their company property still it would have just saved a lot of trouble to just make Madelyne Pryor a member of the X-Men or set Cyclops up with Emma Frost from the get go and set Jean up with Logan and avoid this mess and all other future messes altogether.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 02-12-2018 at 08:09 AM.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  15. #15
    Amazing Member perdid06's Avatar
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    I think the premise of Claremont was flawed right at the begining, in a world of Ghosts, aliens, mutants and Gods, the fact that you meet a girl looking and sounding exactly like your ex dead girlfriend, that she walked out of the plane crash the exact day that girlfriend died is far too much coincidence, and the reveal that madelyn was actually a clone of Jean made much more sense than to just explain she was the one in a million looking exactly like Jean!

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