Did Chris Claremont hate cyclops?

[yogaflame]

While it was a bad idea to have Scott leave Maddie like that, I never got the feeling that Chris hated Cyclops.

Wider editorial pushed the "O5 return as X-Factor" idea. Just as wider editorial pushed the "Jean must die for what she did as Dark Phoenix" idea. Maddie was Claremont's solution to that, as he intended for Scott and Jean(depowered) to retire and live happily ever after. Having Scott leave Maddie and the baby like that was not really his idea.

I never got the sense that Claremont hated Scott. Scott is a consummate leader in the early run, and holds his own against the Mastermind-influenced X-Men in #175. I think Claremont was just bored by Scott after a while, and was more interested in the newer characters.

[Ulfhammer]

Yep. And over 30 years later, he's still pissed about it.

All of this is also why Claremont is an intense Jean/Logan shipper.

Which I find ironic because no other writer (with the possible exception of Simonson) did more to build Scott and Jean as couple than he did. This is the best confirmation I can think of that he changed him mind about them as a couple following the Jean retcon.

Regardless of whether CC is willing to admit it or not, I believe Scott leaving Maddie has a huge impact on how he perceived Scott. Did that directly lead to him wanting to pair Logan with Jean? I suspect so but honestly I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

I think this must frustrate Claremont to this day because his best known and acclaimed X-Men story, and the greatest love story in X-Men canon is about Scott and Jean, a couple he clearly associates with what he considers a massive betrayal by Marvel. Given how talked about the DPS is to this day, it's also likely a wound he can never really heal. Should we really be surprised that he's so bitter about it?

[LP22]

What's more stupid is the fact that he considers that blight that is called x-men forever the continuing of his x-men story if he didn't leave back at 1991.

Wow dodged a bullet on that one.

[lurkerforyears]

Which I find ironic because no other writer (with the possible exception of Simonson) did more to build Scott and Jean as couple than he did. This is the best confirmation I can think of that he changed him mind about them as a couple following the Jean retcon.

Regardless of whether CC is willing to admit it or not, I believe Scott leaving Maddie has a huge impact on how he perceived Scott. Did that directly lead to him wanting to pair Logan with Jean? I suspect so but honestly I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

I think this must frustrate Claremont to this day because his best known and acclaimed X-Men story, and the greatest love story in X-Men canon is about Scott and Jean, a couple he clearly associates with what he considers a massive betrayal by Marvel. Given how talked about the DPS is to this day, it's also likely a wound he can never really heal. Should we really be surprised that he's so bitter about it?

to be honest. Marvel treated their star writer Claremont far worse than they have treated Bendis the last decade. Claremont probably feels he didnt deserve to be treated like that, first having to kill Jean, and then having to do that to Scott and Maddie.

[Sundowhn]

the phenomenon is normal.
Here in my country, a very high ranking politician was very hated because a bag with 50.000 dollars was found in her bathroom, and she couldnt explain the origin of that money.

Other politicians who have stolen far larger ammounts of money, in the millions or hundreds of millions rage, didnt get nowhere as much hate.
The reason for that is normal people can relate to 50.000 dollars, but they cant relate to hundreds of millions of dollars.

Scott (leaving wife and kid), or Emma (affair with a married man), are relatable sins. Commiting planetary genocide like Namor has done many times, isnt a relatable sin. The people who have commited relatable bad things get more hate than the ones whose evil is of a more fictional scale.

That's a very good point.

I think part of why Claremont started to hate Cyclops(if he did) is also one of the reasons he was such a good writer ... he saw these characters as real, almost. It's like they were friends of his, not just abstract ideas on paper. When he was forced to accept the story of Jean returning and Scott leaving his wife and child to chase his ex, perhaps he viewed it in the same way that you'd view a friend as having done the same thing. Sure, you may feel some degree of sympathy for his plight of loving two women, but most people would completely lose respect for a friend that ditched his family for someone else. I know I would. That 'cad' persona was added to later, when he cheated on Jean with Emma.

He may have been an arguably good leader, but, as a human being, he was a bit of a dog.

[Michael Watkins]

It was messed up to marry Scott to a lesser version of Jean, in the first place. She was a really normal woman. Scott was groomed to lead the X-Men. How was this going to work?

[Sundowhn]

It was messed up to marry Scott to a lesser version of Jean, in the first place. She was a really normal woman. Scott was groomed to lead the X-Men. How was this going to work?

Yeah, that's where Claremont's idea got scrapped. He was going to have Scott retire with his family to make it work.

[yogaflame]

You have to remember, Scott was a mess, psychologically. The whole parents abducted by aliens/thrown out of a plane with his little brother/parachute catches on fire/massive head trauma leaving him in a coma/never adopted/forgets his past life as a self-defense mechanism/manipulated by Sinister for years/runs away from orphanage after being chased by a mob when his uncontrollable optic blasts manifest again/manipulated by a diamond-skinned telepathic villain/trained to be a paramilitary solider in a secluded school by another morally-ambiguous telepath-backstory is a lot, even by superhero comic standards. That anyone would expect him to function as an emotionally sound being is beyond reason.

[FUBAR007]

Which I find ironic because no other writer (with the possible exception of Simonson) did more to build Scott and Jean as couple than he did. This is the best confirmation I can think of that he changed him mind about them as a couple following the Jean retcon.

Regardless of whether CC is willing to admit it or not, I believe Scott leaving Maddie has a huge impact on how he perceived Scott. Did that directly lead to him wanting to pair Logan with Jean? I suspect so but honestly I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Classic X-Men launched around the same time as X-Factor, and it's in those back-up stories that he retconned in much of Jean/Logan, specifically Jean's super-intense attraction to him. The timing is no coincidence.

I think this must frustrate Claremont to this day because his best known and acclaimed X-Men story, and the greatest love story in X-Men canon is about Scott and Jean, a couple he clearly associates with what he considers a massive betrayal by Marvel. Given how talked about the DPS is to this day, it's also likely a wound he can never really heal. Should we really be surprised that he's so bitter about it?

If I ever get the chance to ask him a question again, I'm going to ask him if, were he writing the Dark Phoenix Saga today, would he make it about Jean and Logan rather than Jean and Scott. I bet his answer would be yes.

[Hizashi]

You have to remember, Scott was a mess, psychologically. The whole parents abducted by aliens/thrown out of a plane with his little brother/parachute catches on fire/massive head trauma leaving him in a coma/never adopted/forgets his past life as a self-defense mechanism/manipulated by Sinister for years/runs away from orphanage after being chased by a mob when his uncontrollable optic blasts manifest again/manipulated by a diamond-skinned telepathic villain/trained to be a paramilitary solider in a secluded school by another morally-ambiguous telepath-backstory is a lot, even by superhero comic standards. That anyone would expect him to function as an emotionally sound being is beyond reason.

Lol, I’ve said it before, but Cyke has like three villain origins rolled into one.

[Hizashi]

Classic X-Men launched around the same time as X-Factor, and it's in those back-up stories that he retconned in much of Jean/Logan, specifically Jean's super-intense attraction to him. The timing is no coincidence.



If I ever get the chance to ask him a question again, I'm going to ask him if, were he writing the Dark Phoenix Saga today, would he make it about Jean and Logan rather than Jean and Scott. I bet his answer would be yes.

We’ve seen how Jean and Logan being centric to DPS turns out.

[FUBAR007]

What's more stupid is the fact that he considers that blight that is called x-men forever the continuing of his x-men story if he didn't leave back at 1991.

Not quite. The only part of his original plans that made it into X-Men Forever was Jean dumping Scott for Logan.

His original plans, had he stayed in 1991, involved building up to a final showdown with the Shadow King in Uncanny #300. Xavier would die in the battle, and Magneto would take over as leader of the X-Men.

[wano]

You have to remember, Scott was a mess, psychologically. The whole parents abducted by aliens/thrown out of a plane with his little brother/parachute catches on fire/massive head trauma leaving him in a coma/never adopted/forgets his past life as a self-defense mechanism/manipulated by Sinister for years/runs away from orphanage after being chased by a mob when his uncontrollable optic blasts manifest again/manipulated by a diamond-skinned telepathic villain/trained to be a paramilitary solider in a secluded school by another morally-ambiguous telepath-backstory is a lot, even by superhero comic standards. That anyone would expect him to function as an emotionally sound being is beyond reason.

Well he's good at suppressing his emotions, but that's not a solution in the long run

Also people take cyclops ditching Maddie as a personal affront, I guess it's a sin that hits close to home. But the way they say it is as if he dumped her, completely forgot about her and went to live the happy life with his mistress without giving two shits about it ¬¬. He hated himself every second for his actions, realised it was a horrible mistake and did everything in his power to find Maddie and Nathan, and also one way to look at inferno is Maddie making Cyclops pay for everything he did to her and Jean ultimately saving him. That was hell long ago and I'm sure if Maddie and Cyclops met again he'd do his best to save her and turn her to the side of good because one way or another he still cares about her and blames himself for everything that happened to her, I just think he has suffered enough because of that. Although I'm sure today's media would say Cyclops is worse than Hitler or Kevin Spacey

[FUBAR007]

That anyone would expect him to function as an emotionally sound being is beyond reason.

The problem is that was the point of Cyclops's character: a damaged orphan with a brutal past who, under Xavier's tutelage, became a cool, confident leader, a hero, and a mature, level-headed man. He was Xavier's great success story.

Then, the Madelyne Pryor mess came along and exploded all of that.

Simonson and, later, Lobdell and Nicieza spent almost a decade altogether rebuilding his character.

Then, Grant Morrison came along and exploded all of that.

And, so it goes...

[spirit2011]

Not quite. The only part of his original plans that made it into X-Men Forever was Jean dumping Scott for Logan.

His original plans, had he stayed in 1991, involved building up to a final showdown with the Shadow King in Uncanny #300. Xavier would die in the battle, and Magneto would take over as leader of the X-Men.

OMG. Bunn kinda of recycled this on X-men blue, sure being leader to O5 is smaller than Claremont idea

I wonder how Scott cheating on Jean with Emma impacted Claremont dislike of the character