Which superheroes could do Batman's job?

[Pendaran]

So I'm not entirely sure what is being argued at this point. I will say that I took a lot of Batman’s crazier tech to involve a certain degree of using other people’s tech. I don’t see the guy as being able to build a teleporter from scratch, but I could certainly see him learning how to build one if he has encountered enough of them, and sci-fi tech is all over the place in DC. I mean we’ve straight up seen Batman copy T-Spheres from Mr. Terrific to use for his own purposes.

I do think there is PIS in a lot of the stuff Batman has shown over the years not being utilized more effectively—it’s kind of the Reed Richards is useless trope. I think there have been some in –canon bullshitty explanations that Batman doesn’t want to lose his edge by relying on tech or some such. Also he might be a little nervous about surveillance robots after that OMAC thing. But generally super tech gets horribly underutilized almost as much as super speed in comics. I mean Oracle basically had a danger room with hard light simulators and lived in a world with miraculous healing magic and science, and was stuck in a wheel chair.

I’m not positive what that has to do with the thread at hand.

Daenerys has argued that Batman's victories against his better villains amount to Batman jobbing them out and benefitting from PIS, because normally they "outprep and stomp him", as part of arguing Batman himself can't face them. Then at the same time they have argued that basically all of Batman's high end tech accomplishments and resources are valid, in order to say most supergeniuses will have all kinds of advanced tech they can do whatever with, regardless of limitations.

You cannot say the first thing, and the second thing, and be remotely consistent. Because in such situations they feel happened like that, it's not like anyone remotely took on "using all my tech that I can use and operating at my full intelligence" Batman. That would mean Batman was the one in fact deeply hobbled. Even setting aside time he gets within particular arcs, he has piles and piles of time inbetween such arcs to tech out his underpinnings in the city, in himself, have his scads of automated things going, such that when these plots happen, they crash right into having to deal with such things.

[Pendaran]

Harry's pretty smart, and a decent detective. If he gets Batman's files on Ra's he could use magic to track the dude down and blow his head off if it came to that and I'd imagine that would be his biggest issue right off the bat.

I'm pretty sure magic would fall under the "doesn't get powers" thing.

[MorphyVSFischer]

I'm pretty sure magic would fall under the "doesn't get powers" thing.

Gah, forgot about that.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

So I'm not entirely sure what is being argued at this point. I will say that I took a lot of Batman’s crazier tech to involve a certain degree of using other people’s tech. I don’t see the guy as being able to build a teleporter from scratch, but I could certainly see him learning how to build one if he has encountered enough of them, and sci-fi tech is all over the place in DC. I mean we’ve straight up seen Batman copy T-Spheres from Mr. Terrific to use for his own purposes.

I do think there is PIS in a lot of the stuff Batman has shown over the years not being utilized more effectively—it’s kind of the Reed Richards is useless trope. I think there have been some in –canon bullshitty explanations that Batman doesn’t want to lose his edge by relying on tech or some such. Also he might be a little nervous about surveillance robots after that OMAC thing. But generally super tech gets horribly underutilized almost as much as super speed in comics. I mean Oracle basically had a danger room with hard light simulators and lived in a world with miraculous healing magic and science, and was stuck in a wheel chair.

I’m not positive what that has to do with the thread at hand.

The argument is:

1) OP said character get access to all Batman’s Tech. This would mean anything he’s owned or used that was his. Period. This includes force-field(s), armors, remote control army of devices, etc. I say Batman doesn’t use that stuff all the time due to him hating them, other cis, enemies not giving him the chance, or some tech not being reliable enough for him given his level of proficient in them. The most blatant example being Batman not using Batwing armor all the time, which has shown extreme capabilities including a force-filed. Pen counter argument is: he has determined Batman’s characterization at a certain level and deems Batman below some of those things. He argues the lack of continued use of those things against enemies by Batman would therefore be pis (either side), jobbing, or indication that the tech is smvsl /contrary to characterization.

2) Op said characters can do whatever besides go past batman tech level. I argue any smart character can increase monitoring/ using all Batman toys to super-police Gotham unlike Batman has done himself. I say it is legit for smarter characters to try that while not attempting to improve on the technology. Pen says this can’t be done because batman hasn’t shown it and because you’d need to go outside batman capacity within the scenario.

Point 1 is at heart a feat debate that for the scenario only requires a scan showing batman used something and owning it as Op allowed anything, but that has become more an argument about Batman’s characterization/capacity as a whole technology wise. This in turn leads to debating cis vs pis as it’s important why he might not have used ‘insert’ tech in some arc if it’s kind of in reach, or if he understand the concept behind it and with effort and time could employ it.

Point 2 is up to the OP intent/discretion, which can be read somewhat differently. But I think his second post makes it pretty clear that any tactics involving batman tech can be tried whether Batman’s tried them or not as long as it remains 'batman level'. Op however decides this.
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At the lowest end tech-wise, if i conceded tech somewhat, we have our New Batman wearing Batwings armor with a nerd helper in Alfred style, computer gotham knowledge, and occasional help from the Bat Family. What besides the biggest threat RA, Riddler Gotham Native riddles, or Joker due to sheer insanity is a serious threat to our hero?????

[phantom1592]

It's not semantics. What's Batman's job? To clean up Gotham? To not let innocents die? To bring justice who those who breaks the law? To save as many lives as possible?

This.

What is 'Batman's job'? How is it different from EVERY hero EVER?? Spiderman, daredevil, green Arrow, they are all 'doing Batman's job'... just not in the same way he is.

I think a better question is who ALREADY has done Batman's job? Dick Grayson did it... Twice. Tim Drake techniquely was doing a better job of being Batman than Azrael was during the knightfall story... And of course Azrael... which if HE was picked for the job... then yeah, pretty much anyone could.

Heck... during the 'one year later' story, we found out that Batman entrusted Gotham to a reformed Harvey Dent.




There was a TIME... when Bruce was integral to the concept. He was the detective, he had the training, he was the inventor... But as the years go by, His skills are mostly ignored by writers ANYway... His costume is so damage resistant that his acrobatic/stealth skills aren't important, the Batcomputer does all his analyzing and calculations for him, His gear is so advanced that anyone could us it now and be a half-way decent batman...

Add in the Batman inc. concept, and they already farmed out the franchise... Anyone, anywhere can be a batman!!!

[Pendaran]

enemies not giving him the chance

Any time Batman has been in the batcave he has a chance to use them. Any time Batman is not in the midst of some major event, he has a chance to bring them to bear on a larger scale such that when a major event happens, he can use them. He has plenty of time to have ushered out things into the city.

due to him hating them, other cis

He is neither incompetent or stupid, and that he uses them at all, makes him willing to use them. He's entirely willing to make use of all sorts of things against people that outclass him, and one would wonder why he wouldn't if so outclassed.

or some tech not being reliable enough for him given his level of proficient in them

When he can build these things to the point of incorporating them into armor, and to the point that he's otherwise showing technical acumen to the point of making teleportation machines, this makes no sense to claim as a limitation, and would just be PIS.

Similarly, this doesn't work to claim for things Batman routinely uses as far as his "tons of vehicles and automata" but just doesn't use in the full numbers that he could. He doesn't hate these things, or he wouldn't use them so regularly. He has constant access to them.

This in turn leads to debating cis vs pis as it’s important why he might not have used ‘insert’ tech in some arc if it’s kind of in reach, or if he understand the concept behind it and with effort and time could employ it.

You went on an entire thing about "no one would want to see that in a comic" amongst your reasoning. It makes claiming "cis covers all this" really thin.

2) Op said characters can do whatever besides go past batman tech level. I argue any smart character can increase monitoring/ using all Batman toys to super-police Gotham unlike Batman has done himself. I say it is legit for smarter characters to try that while not attempting to improve on the technology. Pen says this can’t be done because batman hasn’t shown it and because you’d need to go outside batman capacity within the scenario.

You said they would be modifying the tech, that would be improving it simply by definition. You alternatively said Batman has scads of this stuff that he could just be using anyway. Which again makes for him not doing so himself, PIS. If he has scads of something, arguing he hates and doesn't want to use it doesn't really work.

At the lowest end tech-wise, if i conceded tech somewhat, we have our New Batman wearing Batwings armor with a nerd helper in Alfred style, computer gotham knowledge, and occasional help from the Bat Family. What besides the biggest threat RA, Riddler Gotham Native riddles, or Joker due to sheer insanity is a serious threat to our hero?????

What help from the Bat family? Batgirl is not particularly Oracle level anymore, Dick Grayson pilfered Tim Drake's best stuff and is off being a secret agent around the world, and Tim Drake exists in some degraded Teen Titans based purgatory and the Red Hood is... the Red Hood, as far as it goes. You said Batwing himself would compensate for this, which necessitated trotting out a bunch of things for "the guy who is not here is a vastly superior detective to Nightwing". You want to refer to character in their exact to this very moment state as far as information that would be in their files, or hits they have taken, but you refer to the Bat family in a way that takes them out of theirs. Nevermind that as a scattered group, they will have to be reassembled every time they are needed.

Alternatively, if the bat family can just cover this, then trying to talk about how someone can fill in for Batman because Batman jobs out his enemies, because of how smart or capable the person is, or whatever, that "people are overselling what Batman can do and what his job entails" has no meaning as a thing to say, because the answer to the OP becomes "it doesn't matter, the Bat family will carry them anyway". In that case yes, people can replace Batman, because Batman trained up his replacements, to replace him. It makes it odd to talk about when Batman has gotten by with help from them besides because again, yes, Batman totally got by with the help of the people he trained to be able to help him.

What besides the biggest threat RA, Riddler Gotham Native riddles, or Joker due to sheer insanity is a serious threat to our hero?????

So, to start off with, if they can't deal with these three threats? They can't replace Batman. This then lead us to the "Batman can't deal with them either" claim, which cannot reconcile with the "Batman's technical capacity and resources are this good" claim. And otherwise into a weird place with going that even post crisis plots they reference in nu directly shouldn't be considered. Beyond that though, any villain that engages in complex or secreted plotting on a scale of intellect that actually challenges Batman's capacity as a detective to a notable degree, vis a vis people having to operate in such situations who lack it. So, Zsaz when not in spree killer mode, off the top of my head, as far as things as basic as "finding out and stopping him from murdering people". Hugo Strange, the Jeremiah Arkham Black Mask, the every so often "villain who is the dark mirror image of Batman" villain..

Sans thread limits, any high caliber supergenius will "my tech makes you irrelevant" cheat his way through problems with any of these people in short order, in extremely short order the higher end you go. With them limits, they're operating at a huge handicap.

[master of read]

Any time Batman has been in the batcave he has a chance to use them. Any time Batman is not in the midst of some major event, he has a chance to bring them to bear on a larger scale such that when a major event happens, he can use them. He has plenty of time to have ushered out things into the city.



He is neither incompetent or stupid, and that he uses them at all, makes him willing to use them. He's entirely willing to make use of all sorts of things against people that outclass him, and one would wonder why he wouldn't if so outclassed.



When he can build these things to the point of incorporating them into armor, and to the point that he's otherwise showing technical acumen to the point of making teleportation machines, this makes no sense to claim as a limitation, and would just be PIS.

Similarly, this doesn't work to claim for things Batman routinely uses as far as his "tons of vehicles and automata" but just doesn't use in the full numbers that he could. He doesn't hate these things, or he wouldn't use them so regularly. He has constant access to them.



You went on an entire thing about "no one would want to see that in a comic" amongst your reasoning. It makes claiming "cis covers all this" really thin.



You said they would be modifying the tech, that would be improving it simply by definition. You alternatively said Batman has scads of this stuff that he could just be using anyway. Which again makes for him not doing so himself, PIS. If he has scads of something, arguing he hates and doesn't want to use it doesn't really work.



What help from the Bat family? Batgirl is not particularly Oracle level anymore, Dick Grayson pilfered Tim Drake's best stuff and is off being a secret agent around the world, and Tim Drake exists in some degraded Teen Titans based purgatory. You said Batwing himself would compensate for this, which necessitated trotting out a bunch of things for "the guy who is not here is a vastly superior detective to Nightwing".

Alternatively, if the bat family can just cover this, then trying to talk about how someone can fill in for Batman because Batman jobs out his enemies, because of how smart or capable the person is, or whatever, that "people are overselling what Batman can do and what his job entails" has no meaning as a thing to say, because the answer to the OP becomes "it doesn't matter, the Bat family will carry them anyway". In that case yes, people can replace Batman, because Batman trained up his replacements, to replace him. It makes it odd to talk about when Batman has gotten by with help from them besides because again, yes, Batman totally got by with the help of the people he trained to be able to help him.



So, to start off with, if they can't deal with these three threats? They can't replace Batman. This then lead us to the "Batman can't deal with them either" claim, which cannot reconcile with the "Batman's technical capacity and resources are this good" claim. And otherwise into a weird place with going that even post crisis plots they reference in nu directly shouldn't be considered. Beyond that though, any villain that engages in complex or secreted plotting on a scale of intellect that actually challenges Batman's capacity as a detective to a notable degree, vis a vis people having to operate in such situations who lack it. So, Zsaz when not in spree killer mode, off the top of my head, as far as things as basic as "finding out and stopping him from murdering people". Hugo Strange, the Jeremiah Arkham Black Mask, the every so often "villain who is the dark mirror image of Batman" villain..

Sans thread limits, any high caliber supergenius will "my tech makes you irrelevant" cheat his way through problems with any of these people in short order, in extremely short order the higher end you go. With them limits, they're operating at a huge handicap.

dont forget the court of owls.

[Pendaran]

Heck... during the 'one year later' story, we found out that Batman entrusted Gotham to a reformed Harvey Dent.

Who he trained up to do that job.

What is 'Batman's job'? How is it different from EVERY hero EVER?? Spiderman, daredevil, green Arrow, they are all 'doing Batman's job'... just not in the same way he is.

then yeah, pretty much anyone could.

Four times bingo.

I think a better question is who ALREADY has done Batman's job? Dick Grayson did it... Twice. Tim Drake techniquely was doing a better job of being Batman than Azrael was during the knightfall story... And of course Azrael... which if HE was picked for the job... then yeah, pretty much anyone could.

The natural genius trained by Batman was doing a good job at being Batman? The hell you say. Azrael also did a terrible job, as Batman, that people suffered for, it's one of Batman's biggest mistakes of his career.

There was a TIME... when Bruce was integral to the concept. He was the detective, he had the training, he was the inventor... But as the years go by, His skills are mostly ignored by writers ANYway... His costume is so damage resistant that his acrobatic/stealth skills aren't important, the Batcomputer does all his analyzing and calculations for him, His gear is so advanced that anyone could us it now and be a half-way decent batman...

That's certainly.. one take on apparently all Batman comics since the 90s, going by the Azrael argument.

[The Watcher]

Based on the latest posts either not staying within the parameters of the thread or simply asserting that anyone can be Batman with no serious offering of evidence I think this thread has run its course. Closing for now.