Black Panther *Spoilers*

[The Cool Thatguy]

You are correct. I was thinking wrongly. The one person who displayed frustration was W'Kabi. How could he Killmonger know about the frustration of W'Kabi. Oe even who is W'Kabi? But your Bin Laden analogy made it clear. Thanks!

Killmonger couldn't have known in advance who might support him, but that he would have supporters would be pretty easy to predict.

He was lucky though, that his father's crimes were never exposed. He had no way of knowing how his father's disappearance was sold to Wakanda

[The Cool Thatguy]

So what do you call Killmonger burning the garden of the heart shaped herbs and wanting to wage war when he knows that's not the Wakandian way?

M'Baku is a traditionalist. He wouldn't have done what Killmonger did.

I'm calling it now, M'Baku is a third movie villain who tries to destroy technology world wide. Place your bets!

[Sighphi]

Didn't they both partake of the herb at the conclusion of the challenge? As far as I can tell they were on equal ground you can't hold T to a standard that KM isn't meeting either.

KM took the herb because he won. T got the herb because it was stolen.
KM is supposed to get the herb, T was not.

Challenge is completed when one of the two either manages to:

a) kill the other

b) or make the other surrender.


After that one becomes the king. In this case, Killmonger failed to kill T'Challa. Whatever the reason might be. And T'Challa did not submit. So, Black Panther did not come to challenge Killmonger. Rather the challenge was incomplete in the first place and Killmonger by law wasn't the king yet.

Dont forget C, without BP powers, he was shown twice being depowered. And the T family ignored to get T back, because without the Herb T would've been dead like Man-ape says.

Notice what Okoye says to the Dora Milaje, when the W'Kabi's army had already attacked T'Challa. She said something like protect our king.

The only thing i remember is her declaring him not fit to be king and attacking him because earlier she says that they must follow the rules no matter who is king. So she found some way to get around that.

I think the problem here which i can't think of an answer is what was the point of going through all that trouble of stealing vibranium, leading to capture of Klaue as well as rescuing him. To finally kill him.

In fact that was the reason why Ross ended up at Wakanda and he played a vital role in destroying the ships which were carrying the vibranium weapons.

I'm guessing the idea is that he didnt know if Klaw was still an issue in Wakanda so he wanted to make sure Klaw was doing some deals so the messing around could pop up in Wakanda News Network to make his entrance easier. I mean, he did get it because of that dude that got his mother and father killed let him in.

So what do you call Killmonger burning the garden of the heart shaped herbs and wanting to wage war when he knows that's not the Wakandian way?

M'Baku is a traditionalist. He wouldn't have done what Killmonger did.

He is advancing the way the rulers will be chosen just like Shuri and the other scientist advanced all the tech.

There were Wakandans that wanted to take over the rest of the world. The Rhino tribe dude said that he would go out and do it to T. He even repeated that when KM was king.

Man-ape prays to Hanuman, he isnt likely to take something so he could get in with Bast.

[rpmaluki]

During the challenge, neither are supposed to be on the herb but they are. Twice we've seen T have the herb's effects nullified before participating in the challenge. If one is in the wrong, so is the other and also as pointed out already T wasn't dead, nor did he yield, thus nullifying KM's ascendancy to the throne as legitimate once T returned and a more decisive conclusion could be determined. It can be argued that T was still rightfully king and KM the (failed) usurper he was.

[Sighphi]

During the challenge, neither are supposed to be on the herb but they are. Twice we've seen T have the herb's effects nullified before participating in the challenge. If one is in the wrong, so is the other and also as pointed out already T wasn't dead, nor did he yield, thus nullifying KM's ascendancy to the throne as legitimate once T returned and a more decisive conclusion could be determined. It can be argued that T was still rightfully king and KM the (failed) usurper he was.

He is not dead because he was brought back by the herb. You cant say the challenge is still happening when there was outside intervention with the adding of the herb which is not supposed to be in play.

How can you all spout rules while ignoring the violation of said rules by the T family? No herb in the challenge so it can be fair. But the herb was brought in to help T.

If anyone is going to say KM is disrespecting Wakandan rules then T and his family also disrespected them by using the herb while the challenge was still on.

So, really, this is nothing about traditions and all about a power struggle for the throne. I want my family there so i will do whatever i want to get it there.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Given that Killmonger is the disgraced son of his uncle, only half royal blood, I honestly think that the challenge only went forward at T'Challa's mercy.

Lets not forget that Killmonger rescued Klaw from T'Challa's custody. If we're counting who did what wrong first, I'd say that Killmonger started underhanded crap first.

[Sighphi]

Given that Killmonger is the disgraced son of his uncle, only half royal blood, I honestly think that the challenge only went forward at T'Challa's mercy.

And that was T's stupid move. He should've denied it.

Lets not forget that Killmonger rescued Klaw from T'Challa's custody. If we're counting who did what wrong first, I'd say that Killmonger started underhanded crap first.

You mean from the US's custody. We didnt know how that was going to play out.

[Totoro Man]

So what do you call Killmonger burning the garden of the heart shaped herbs and wanting to wage war when he knows that's not the Wakandian way?

M'Baku is a traditionalist. He wouldn't have done what Killmonger did.

right, which is exactly why T'challa's family, when they were convinced T'challa was dead, went to him for help. although M'Baku resented them he still respected their culture and traditions enough to play by their rules in the challenge. having an honorable adversary usurp the throne would have been preferable to what Killmonger ended up doing. M'Baku wouldn't have literally DESTROYED the traditions by demanding that the heart-shaped herb be burned in the first place.

(honestly, I thought M'Baku and W'Kabi were better written and acted than Killmonger... all four of the antagonists worked as part of the larger film... but Killmonger was actually the least interesting out of the four. fortunately, ALL of them were better than what is typical for MCU films so I didn't mind too much)

and I'm right there with you: I don't understand this line of argument that Killmonger wasn't disrespecting Wakandan culture... because he was from Oakland?!?!

we're seriously going to try and lay that out there as a legitimate argument? I could make the same basic argument by saying that agent Ross, despite appearances to the contrary, didn't actually underestimate Wakandan culture because.... he was American.

it's a non-sequitur

[Bukdiah]

No the film is very good. And also happens to have black leads. Simply a black lead does not help. Or just a woman lead. First the film has to be good by itself. Ghostbusters, Underworld and so on are another examples of female lead films. But they did not get praise as Wonder Woman did. First of all both Wonder Woman and Black Panther are really good movies. After that because they are having diverse casts and in my opinion more importantly diverse voices behind camera it gains more importance.

Diversity is always admirable. But without something being good, diversity can't help at all.

I think it has too many easy problems to pick out to be a great movie. It definitely doesn't have a strong screenplay. I'll agree that it's good though just thought it was over hyped hard. BP and WW make alright movies that also have representation, thus glowing reviews IMO

[Immortal Weapon]

He is advancing the way the rulers will be chosen just like Shuri and the other scientist advanced all the tech.

There were Wakandans that wanted to take over the rest of the world. The Rhino tribe dude said that he would go out and do it to T. He even repeated that when KM was king.

Man-ape prays to Hanuman, he isnt likely to take something so he could get in with Bast.

He didn't want advancement. He wanted to start a global revolution through violence. The majority of the Wankandian wardogs didn't even want in on the plan. London, New York, LA and Hong Kong were the only ones that went along with it. If you notice, all those locations have been hit with major disasters within the MCU.

The border tribe went along with it due to misguided faith in Killmonger as he too was similarly vengeance driven.

[Soubhagya]

KM took the herb because he won. T got the herb because it was stolen.
KM is supposed to get the herb, T was not.



Dont forget C, without BP powers, he was shown twice being depowered. And the T family ignored to get T back, because without the Herb T would've been dead like Man-ape says.



The only thing i remember is her declaring him not fit to be king and attacking him because earlier she says that they must follow the rules no matter who is king. So she found some way to get around that.



I'm guessing the idea is that he didnt know if Klaw was still an issue in Wakanda so he wanted to make sure Klaw was doing some deals so the messing around could pop up in Wakanda News Network to make his entrance easier. I mean, he did get it because of that dude that got his mother and father killed let him in.



He is advancing the way the rulers will be chosen just like Shuri and the other scientist advanced all the tech.

There were Wakandans that wanted to take over the rest of the world. The Rhino tribe dude said that he would go out and do it to T. He even repeated that when KM was king.

Man-ape prays to Hanuman, he isnt likely to take something so he could get in with Bast.

So you mean to say that T'Challa was the challenger and Killmonger was the king during the final battle?

I mean what was the status of T'Challa? Was he a king or not a king?

Technically Killmonger wasn't the king yet even after the coronation. Did he complete the challenge? No. But everyone thought he did. A man of his experience should know that its possible to survive such falls. He should not have thrown T'Challa down the waterfall.

[Soubhagya]

I think it has too many easy problems to pick out to be a great movie. It definitely doesn't have a strong screenplay. I'll agree that it's good though just thought it was over hyped hard. BP and WW make alright movies that also have representation, thus glowing reviews IMO

Yes they are hyped. I think its possible that they might get slightly inflated scores. But not so much that a 70 in RT gets 90+. Critics give scores based on what they think. I cited examples. There are other black lead films. Other female lead films. But not every film gets this kind of score.

I would like to hear what you thought were problems with its screenplay. If only in brief. I also don't think its great. But far better then simply good as you said. I love Civil War. Its my favorite MCU film. Among my favorite superhero films. But even i know that its cinematography is average. By comparison Snyder's films both MoS and BvS have far better cinematography then just about any MCU film. But its the overall experience which counts. Of course i am no film expert or a critic who looks or even can look at a film from all levels. But i can speak what i feel about a film.

RT is not a very good metric for quality. It simply means that 97 percent critics think that its a film worth seeing. That it is at least good. Metacritic is a better metric. But even there it has a stellar 88. Each of those 50 critics have given 8.8/10 on an average.

I can give examples where i don't like acclaimed films. Where i can somewhat see why they get such acclaim. But i don't like them at all. Slumdog Millionaire and Dunkirk come right at the top of my head. I even think that Ghostbusters the original is overrated. It was okay. But far from a film which i expected it to be considering its popularity.

I am not implying that you are wrong. No film is universally beloved. But is it possible that you simply like a film which is generally loved by a good number of people? Of course i don't know what you feel are its weaker points. So, i maybe wrong about your opinion.

[Soubhagya]

I'm calling it now, M'Baku is a third movie villain who tries to destroy technology world wide. Place your bets!

I must admit i am a bit dissapointed. I wanted to see Daniel Kaluuya as a hero. I loved him in Get Out. So when i came to know that he is here i was excited. But his role was smaller and he was not a hero. Rather he helped Killmonger against T'Challa.

[Agent Z]

I finally saw it on Thursday with my brother and I liked it. Boseman and Jordan played their characters excellently. I found this one stuck with me more than most Marvel films.

[Soubhagya]

And that was T's stupid move. He should've denied it.

He is not just a superhero or a politician. He is a warrior. And a king. That is not the nature of a true warrior to shirk away from a challenge. That is how kings were established. They can't simply win the right to rule by a popular election. Kings are supposed to be the strongest there is. Capable of protecting themselves as well as the kingdom.

A true warrior has pride for battle. They don't go away from a fight. For a king that's seen as bad, as people under him shall not think of them as weak or incapable. If they give an image of weakness such people in king's court who have lust for power become encouraged. An image issue exists.

Furthermore, by principle of fairness T'Challa did the right thing. Killmonger could have been in T'Challa's position had his father not abandoned him after killing his father. That was a huge injustice. These are admirable qualities in T'Challa. Someday everyone has to give up the throne. No one can rule forever. The king shall have such good qualities to rule. His mistake was in underestimating him. During the fight he had openings for at least two times to win. For example when he cut Killmonger's face. He could've killed him but chose mercy as he wanted him to surrender.

Granted its a stupid rule that just by winning a one to one combat one can become king. That's too outdated and impractical for even a monarchy.