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  1. #751
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Probably my favorite MU villain, Killmonger was very nuanced compared to most of them. And the social questions he raised were really complicated. The movie handled its message on that fine line between being overbearing and being sympathetic. A flawed, realistic view of the complex issue of "so what can be done to improve the lot of blacks in America?"

    But ... I'm concerned at the mixed messages as well. One could argue that Wakanda really only prospered as much as it did precisely because it built a "wall" and was isolationist, ala Trump's vision of America. How would it have been different had they shared the Vibranium with the world from the get go? Like the Middle East, I presume, with everyone fighting for those resources.

    Moving forward, will they truly embrace the vision of Nakia and T'Challa - that they are strong enough to defend their borders while still aiding the world and taking in refugees?
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  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Probably my favorite MU villain, Killmonger was very nuanced compared to most of them. And the social questions he raised were really complicated. The movie handled its message on that fine line between being overbearing and being sympathetic. A flawed, realistic view of the complex issue of "so what can be done to improve the lot of blacks in America?"

    But ... I'm concerned at the mixed messages as well. One could argue that Wakanda really only prospered as much as it did precisely because it built a "wall" and was isolationist, ala Trump's vision of America. How would it have been different had they shared the Vibranium with the world from the get go? Like the Middle East, I presume, with everyone fighting for those resources.

    Moving forward, will they truly embrace the vision of Nakia and T'Challa - that they are strong enough to defend their borders while still aiding the world and taking in refugees?
    It certainly will be interesting to see especially after IW when the dust settles.

  3. #753
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Probably my favorite MU villain, Killmonger was very nuanced compared to most of them. And the social questions he raised were really complicated. The movie handled its message on that fine line between being overbearing and being sympathetic. A flawed, realistic view of the complex issue of "so what can be done to improve the lot of blacks in America?"

    But ... I'm concerned at the mixed messages as well. One could argue that Wakanda really only prospered as much as it did precisely because it built a "wall" and was isolationist, ala Trump's vision of America. How would it have been different had they shared the Vibranium with the world from the get go? Like the Middle East, I presume, with everyone fighting for those resources.

    Moving forward, will they truly embrace the vision of Nakia and T'Challa - that they are strong enough to defend their borders while still aiding the world and taking in refugees?
    I think the point to a degree was that they had indeed built a wall...but T'Challa was tearing down that wall. They realized they needed to share, and not try to hide, their resources. The "wall" around the vibranium, and their culture, was causing problems. Killmonger's father was killed for giving away secrets and betraying Wakanda. Killmonger's story could have been completely avoided if his father hadn't felt like he needed to smuggle the vibranium out, and betray Wakanda. Now, he wanted to do so in more of a weaponized way, but there is more to vibramium, as we saw, than weaponry. So at the end, they set up the Wakanda outreach program, etc, which would share this technology (all built around vibranium). Really it was about how the "wall" caused all this conflict, and in tearing down, they were looking to unify themselves and the rest of the world. I think this whole thing bucked against that vision of America you are worried about.

  4. #754
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobellis75 View Post
    I think the point to a degree was that they had indeed built a wall...but T'Challa was tearing down that wall. They realized they needed to share, and not try to hide, their resources. The "wall" around the vibranium, and their culture, was causing problems. Killmonger's father was killed for giving away secrets and betraying Wakanda. Killmonger's story could have been completely avoided if his father hadn't felt like he needed to smuggle the vibranium out, and betray Wakanda. Now, he wanted to do so in more of a weaponized way, but there is more to vibramium, as we saw, than weaponry. So at the end, they set up the Wakanda outreach program, etc, which would share this technology (all built around vibranium). Really it was about how the "wall" caused all this conflict, and in tearing down, they were looking to unify themselves and the rest of the world. I think this whole thing bucked against that vision of America you are worried about.
    Shuri's joke about "playing with another broken white boy" got plenty of laughs, but it kind of flipped the script on popular perceptions, too. Bucky and Ross are two foreigners in desperate need of aid. Wakandan medicine and technology helped them. Ross ended up defending Wakanda, and the Infinity War trailer shows Bucky fighting side by side with the armies of Wakanda. If their age old insistence that the wall should remain up, those two would be in a completely different story; maybe even more central to the movie, without Ross those weapons would've gotten away.

  5. #755
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Shuri's joke about "playing with another broken white boy" got plenty of laughs, but it kind of flipped the script on popular perceptions, too. Bucky and Ross are two foreigners in desperate need of aid. Wakandan medicine and technology helped them. Ross ended up defending Wakanda, and the Infinity War trailer shows Bucky fighting side by side with the armies of Wakanda. If their age old insistence that the wall should remain up, those two would be in a completely different story; maybe even more central to the movie, without Ross those weapons would've gotten away.
    Ross risked his life for Wakanda twice. (I guess america was at risk but it didnt seem to be his motivation he just wanted to help) i hope he and Tchalla become good friends going forward and he gets that Wakandan Liason job

  6. #756
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobellis75 View Post
    I think the point to a degree was that they had indeed built a wall...but T'Challa was tearing down that wall. They realized they needed to share, and not try to hide, their resources. The "wall" around the vibranium, and their culture, was causing problems. Killmonger's father was killed for giving away secrets and betraying Wakanda. Killmonger's story could have been completely avoided if his father hadn't felt like he needed to smuggle the vibranium out, and betray Wakanda. Now, he wanted to do so in more of a weaponized way, but there is more to vibramium, as we saw, than weaponry. So at the end, they set up the Wakanda outreach program, etc, which would share this technology (all built around vibranium). Really it was about how the "wall" caused all this conflict, and in tearing down, they were looking to unify themselves and the rest of the world. I think this whole thing bucked against that vision of America you are worried about.
    The debate of the film was about the wall and their isolation - but the wall didn't cause any of their problems. The wall allowed their society to grow and prosper to the point that its technological advances rival those of Asgard. The film even says that outright, several times. Hence the mixed message.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 02-20-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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  7. #757
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Probably my favorite MU villain, Killmonger was very nuanced compared to most of them. And the social questions he raised were really complicated. The movie handled its message on that fine line between being overbearing and being sympathetic. A flawed, realistic view of the complex issue of "so what can be done to improve the lot of blacks in America?"

    But ... I'm concerned at the mixed messages as well. One could argue that Wakanda really only prospered as much as it did precisely because it built a "wall" and was isolationist, ala Trump's vision of America. How would it have been different had they shared the Vibranium with the world from the get go? Like the Middle East, I presume, with everyone fighting for those resources.

    Moving forward, will they truly embrace the vision of Nakia and T'Challa - that they are strong enough to defend their borders while still aiding the world and taking in refugees?
    It can be taken as mixed. But looking at one angle isn't Wakanda as powerful as the US. Wakanda in the film is analogous to US in the fact that it is the most advanced country. Now it is trying to break down the walls as the most powerful nation should. Forget how it become one. Its not an analogy for other countries who aren't powerful yet.

    And someone might have pointed out that their adherence to isolation actually created Killmonger. The villain exists because of that.

    And what they would do next could be anything. I am excited. Messages and all are good but all of it must be tied up neatly in a good film. And Black Panther is really good. If they choose to be as political as this who can say what the situation would be like two or three years later? Black Panther 2 won't come out before 2020.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 02-20-2018 at 08:19 PM.

  8. #758
    Spectacular Member Chessboxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Yea i loved the hard contrast between it and Tchallas spirit walk. Im baffled how anyone doesnt find him to be a strong character. Yes hes a psychopath but there was so much more there. And When his father raises his voice and Killmonger becomes a kid again. Powerful stuff.


    Having watched it a 2nd time i love Chadwick Bosemans performance even more. His regal stoic demeanor made the other scenes more impactful or charming. Like when he raises his vocie to Zuri,Or breaks down after Killmonger kills Zuri. Also when he lets his guard down with Shuri.
    Chadwick was incredible. Those 3 scenes you mentioned were my favorites. Also when he was in the astral plane, and was telling his father how wrong he was. I really felt his pain. Incredible talent

  9. #759
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoov-E View Post
    He wanted to fix how black people around the world are treated, he wanted every black person to have it as good as the Wakandans do and he was willing to do that literally by any means necessary. In his world black people aren't treated like second class citizens in their own country
    sounds kinda racist to me. why not make it better for all poor people of the world? poverty is everywhere around the world
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  10. #760
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    I have a question. I'm not sure, but i think Killmonger was still the Black Panther via the tribal custom. So when he died did his essence go to the ancestral plane of former panthers. I guess i'm asking since he died as the Black Panther in Wakanda could he be in the same ancestral realm of former panthers instead of in the same state his father is(on the spirit realm but not the same one as T'Chaka)

  11. #761
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abulafia View Post
    sounds kinda racist to me. why not make it better for all poor people of the world? poverty is everywhere around the world
    He is the villain of the story.

    And also because that's his character. Discrimination or oppression due to one's identity could be far more hard hitting and brutal, then an economic background. The later might just be due to bad luck which can change with time or effort. But identity is something which no one can change and is a shared experience.

    I can imagine another beautiful story. Forget that its Black Panther. Forget its MCU. Killmonger is the main character. The hero. While trying to bring justice he becomes the same monster which he was trying to put down. And ending with him realizing it, after his plan has succeeded could be a delicious story.

    Black people are more disadvantaged due to historical situation. If a community has suffered oppression for an extended period of time its impact does not go away so easily. It takes longer even if the worst forms of oppression has gone away. Not to speak of the fact that oppression might still exist in some form or another. I am quite sure poverty and related suffering must be more within the black population. In Killmonger's twisted ideas he might be solving poverty too. Why donate billions like Bill Gates when you can conquer and reshape the world?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    I have a question. I'm not sure, but i think Killmonger was still the Black Panther via the tribal custom. So when he died did his essence go to the ancestral plane of former panthers. I guess i'm asking since he died as the Black Panther in Wakanda could he be in the same ancestral realm of former panthers instead of in the same state his father is(on the spirit realm but not the same one as T'Chaka)
    I think T'Chaka was not Black Panther when he died. There is no indication that he had those heightened abilities. Or he might not have died in that blast. T'Challa already was Black Panther in Civil War. Yet, T'Chaka was in that realm. I don't think dying as Black Panther has anything to do with being in that realm. Even if only Black Panthers appear to go there.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 02-20-2018 at 10:24 PM.

  12. #762
    MYTH SMITH ∞ !!! G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    he certainly has issues with women

    let his cohort die, choked a Shaman, shouted down Okoye
    "Let"? He killed her.
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  13. #763
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    He is the villain of the story.

    And also because that's his character. Discrimination or oppression due to one's identity could be far more hard hitting and brutal, then an economic background. The later might just be due to bad luck which can change with time or effort. But identity is something which no one can change and is a shared experience.

    I can imagine another beautiful story. Forget that its Black Panther. Forget its MCU. Killmonger is the main character. The hero. While trying to bring justice he becomes the same monster which he was trying to put down. And ending with him realizing it, after his plan has succeeded could be a delicious story.

    Black people are more disadvantaged due to historical situation. If a community has suffered oppression for an extended period of time its impact does not go away so easily. It takes longer even if the worst forms of oppression has gone away. Not to speak of the fact that oppression might still exist in some form or another. I am quite sure poverty and related suffering must be more within the black population. In Killmonger's twisted ideas he might be solving poverty too. Why donate billions like Bill Gates when you can conquer and reshape the world?




    I think T'Chaka was not Black Panther when he died. There is no indication that he had those heightened abilities. Or he might not have died in that blast. T'Challa already was Black Panther in Civil War. Yet, T'Chaka was in that realm. I don't think dying as Black Panther has anything to do with being in that realm. Even if only Black Panthers appear to go there.
    Ok thanks.I was thinking they may draw on the Hickman influence that had a group of former panthers that BP convened with on a ancestral plane. Thought it would be cool to see that, former panthers on the ancestral plane. Though i think the scene of his father changing appearance from a panther to a human hinted at it.
    Last edited by Tazpocalapse; 02-20-2018 at 10:35 PM.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    he certainly has issues with women

    let his cohort die, choked a Shaman, shouted down Okoye
    He did lkill more than just women though. So I won't turn him into an auto sexist. If you kill men. I don't see them as being less valuable than a woman. You kill either in my book, you're a Psychopath. I have a daughter and don't think he was a sexist. He Killed Zuri ASAP. What's a priestess to him? If it was a man, he'd have done the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Legion87 View Post
    It doesn't excuse is actions towards women, but it would help the audience understand his actions I suppose.
    What about his actions towards men? Or are we just fodder, and women get special treatment? Okoye certainly would sacrifice herself for a male I think.
    Last edited by Tazirai; 02-20-2018 at 11:36 PM.

  15. #765
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    You PC police types are missing the point if you're whining about women treatment in this film, as the cast made black widow completely redundant in the mcu going forward smh

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