Black Panther *Spoilers*

[Scott Taylor]

I'll see the film again soon.. but for the moment, I forgot--

Did Killmonger ever directly ask why Wakanda didn't intervene in the slave trades?

No he did not, but why would he, knowing that Wakanda was a completely isolationist country ever since it existed? Their policy was looking out for their own interests, period.

[MichaelC]

The Wakandans are presented as immensely jingoistic and ethnically bigoted. It's likely that for the vast majority of their history, they've been fending off invaders who looked just like them, but whom they thought of as barbarians for cultural/nationalistic reasons. Why would they help those barbarians fight off other new barbarians just because the other new barbarians were oddly pale and had weird straight hair? Just sit back and let them kill each other. The Wakandans of the time period may even have thought of the whole thing as a blessing: weird looking barbarians dragging the local barbarians across the sea where they couldn't raid Wakanda anymore.

Really, expecting the Wakandans of that era to care is about like expecting Westoros to care what happens to Wyldlings. Or Romans to care about what happens to Vandals and Goths.

Killmonger has a different perspective because he's not really Wakandan. He considers himself part of the vast masses of the disenfranchised.

[G. Boney]

I'll see the film again soon.. but for the moment, I forgot--

Did Killmonger ever directly ask why Wakanda didn't intervene in the slave trades?

Not directly, but he eluded to it. Can't remember his exact words but he does ask "Where was Wakanda [during all these hardships]?"

[Scott Taylor]

Killmonger has a different perspective because he's not really Wakandan. He considers himself part of the vast masses of the disenfranchised.

Kind of a brilliant move on the part of the film-makers. He's one of the most sympathetic villains we've ever seen for those reasons.

[RikWriter]

Kind of a brilliant move on the part of the film-makers. He's one of the most sympathetic villains we've ever seen for those reasons.

I didn't really find him that sympathetic, since he was too ruthless and out of control. I found his cause to be sympathetic, but I felt like they undercut the whole thing where he could have been an antagonist but not a villain by making him such a cold-blooded killer. If he'd shown compassion once or twice, even mentioned in passing that the killing saddened him or played on his conscience but it was for the greater good, that would have done a lot towards making him seem more sympathetic.

[Soubhagya]

I have stated from the beginning yes the acting was bad ...emboldened with poor direction possibly....his arc of taking over wakanda and sending out weapons and commands felt a bit rushed ....even trump had a process of transitional power...

I can see why you disliked the performance. I thought it was fine. Not stellar. Not bad either. But his story, motivations, etc. made him quite a compelling villain to me. Quite sympathetic as a matter of fact. He was wronged. He could see the wrongs done to others. And thought what he did was right.

I don't think it was rushed. Rather it was too slow. He planned to bring Klaue to Korea so as to bring BP and Co. down on him. And let them fail. Either by letting Klaue escape by himself. And if caught rescuing him before killing him. I felt it was a bit of a stretch that how could he know that T'Challa himself would arrive. Can anyone clear that up? Because i can't think of a reason to not kill Klaue right at the beginning and take him to Wakanda other then, he would show BP as incapable while showing himself as a victor at the court.

After that he challenged him. I thought that was a weakness in the film. I enjoyed that first half as it had some really good scenes and it was used to set things up. But it was when Killmonger arrived in Wakanda when i was drinking up the movie. It was just too good and the film kicked into a different gear altogether. So, i rather think that his plan was slow to begin with. Why wait so long before killing Klaue and arriving on Wakanda? Just to show himself as the victor and BP incapable. That first point is redundant anyway as he succeeded where Wakandians had failed for decades.

But sending those weapons was fast. Do you have a better idea of how Killmonger could have done better? I don't see a reason of waiting for too long. Would he have benefited by waiting for some time? Of course from a film making perspective they rush things for dramatic effect. Could it have been done better by the film makers? I thought it does not require improvement. But clearly you do.

[Soubhagya]

I didn't really find him that sympathetic, since he was too ruthless and out of control. I found his cause to be sympathetic, but I felt like they undercut the whole thing where he could have been an antagonist but not a villain by making him such a cold-blooded killer. If he'd shown compassion once or twice, even mentioned in passing that the killing saddened him or played on his conscious but it was for the greater good, that would have done a lot towards making him seem more sympathetic.

I found him sympathetic when he was talking to his father at that 'place'. Scenes of his childhood. And of course the ending. The ending when he simply wanted to see the sunset at Wakanda. That was when i found him most vulnerable, apart from the time when he was kid. When dying all he wanted was to see the sunset at Wakanda. I absolutely loved that scene.

For me a villain becomes sympathetic when there's a sliver of humanity in his character and one can understand him a bit. Other times he could be so cruel and evil that he would be a villain. Joker of Dark Knight is not a sympathetic villain. At all. But Hal 2000 in 2001: A Space Odyssey was. In contrast to the almost unfeeling human astronauts he displayed some emotions. He showed fear of death. And why he did what he did was understandable from its point of view. 'Daisy' scene from 2001 is one of the most haunting scenes in cinema. It does not take away from Hal's actions which were cold like a machine.

If Killmonger showed that kind of mercy he is not too far from being an anti-hero. If that happened the only thing stopping him from being a heroic character was that his cause was wrong. Arming people around the world is plainly wrong. No matter who does that. Or else he has heroic qualities who is doing stuff which he thinks is right. That looks close quite close to an anti-hero. Not a villain. What do you think?

[RikWriter]

If Killmonger showed that kind of mercy he is not too far from being an anti-hero. If that happened the only thing stopping him from being a heroic character was that his cause was wrong. Arming people around the world is plainly wrong. No matter who does that. Or else he has heroic qualities who is doing stuff which he thinks is right. That looks close quite close to an anti-hero. Not a villain. What do you think?

I would have LOVED for him to be portrayed as an anti-hero....and subsequently, not to die in the end.

[Soubhagya]

I would have LOVED for him to be portrayed as an anti-hero....and subsequently, not to die in the end.

I see your point.

I think they were too trigger happy in villain department. I enjoyed Serkis' performance more then Jordan's. His character died too early. They killed off Killmonger. That's quite a number for the first film. I wished i would have seen Klaw more. But he was killed to serve the story. That's good storytelling. And while i wished Killmonger to survive i just won't take away from that death. That was my favorite scene in the whole movie.

I agree with you. Making him more of an anti-hero might have been better. I am not complaining what we got. It worked for me. But what you suggest might have been better.

[Scott Taylor]

I didn't really find him that sympathetic, since he was too ruthless and out of control. I found his cause to be sympathetic, but I felt like they undercut the whole thing where he could have been an antagonist but not a villain by making him such a cold-blooded killer. If he'd shown compassion once or twice, even mentioned in passing that the killing saddened him or played on his conscience but it was for the greater good, that would have done a lot towards making him seem more sympathetic.

Yes, I do agree with you that he could have been fleshed out more. The lack of compassion was justified by his being a shadow agent for the CIA, and I found that plausible within the context of the film. Plus, keep in mind that even though he was out of control, he still respected several Wakandan traditions and he did bring Klaue to justice.

Your avatar makes me wish Killmonger and Cap could have had a chat at some point, though.

His death is my favorite villain death of all comic book movies, I think. "Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from the ships, because they knew death was better than bondage." - gave me chills.

[RikWriter]

Your avatar makes me wish Killmonger and Cap could have had a chat at some point, though.

I would like to have seen Killmonger and Luke Cage have a chat.

[Midvillian1322]

Yes, I do agree with you that he could have been fleshed out more. The lack of compassion was justified by his being a shadow agent for the CIA, and I found that plausible within the context of the film. Plus, keep in mind that even though he was out of control, he still respected several Wakandan traditions and he did bring Klaue to justice.

Your avatar makes me wish Killmonger and Cap could have had a chat at some point, though.

His death is my favorite villain death of all comic book movies, I think. "Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from the ships, because they knew death was better than bondage." - gave me chills.

I don't think he respected any traditions. He used klaue to get in and the traditions to take power. He was a highly motivated and very angry man. His sentiment was sympathetic but he wanted the power Wakanda had so he could take his anger out on the world. I don't think there ever woulda been a point when I felt like he did enough and the job was done. He was just a broken man. The oppressors around the world gave him a target for his anger and a way to justify his acts to himself IMO

A more relatable anti-hero version coulda been cool as Well but I doubt see it fitting the version if Killmonger we got. But I like Michael B Jordan so much I woulda loved for him to become a anti-hero. Still really enjoyed what we got

[Powerboy]

I found him sympathetic when he was talking to his father at that 'place'. Scenes of his childhood. And of course the ending. The ending when he simply wanted to see the sunset at Wakanda. That was when i found him most vulnerable, apart from the time when he was kid. When dying all he wanted was to see the sunset at Wakanda. I absolutely loved that scene.

For me a villain becomes sympathetic when there's a sliver of humanity in his character and one can understand him a bit. Other times he could be so cruel and evil that he would be a villain. Joker of Dark Knight is not a sympathetic villain. At all. But Hal 2000 in 2001: A Space Odyssey was. In contrast to the almost unfeeling human astronauts he displayed some emotions. He showed fear of death. And why he did what he did was understandable from its point of view. 'Daisy' scene from 2001 is one of the most haunting scenes in cinema. It does not take away from Hal's actions which were cold like a machine.

If Killmonger showed that kind of mercy he is not too far from being an anti-hero. If that happened the only thing stopping him from being a heroic character was that his cause was wrong. Arming people around the world is plainly wrong. No matter who does that. Or else he has heroic qualities who is doing stuff which he thinks is right. That looks close quite close to an anti-hero. Not a villain. What do you think?

I just saw the movie and I'm still digesting it. I thought there were scenes where Killmonger was sympathetic and scenes where he was not. He was a bit too ruthless to be truly sympathetic although his motivations were sympathetic.

Overall, I'd put the movie up there with the first Avengers, the first Iron-Man and Civil War among the best of the Marvel movies. I wouldn't really say where it stood among the four because it would depend on my mood at the time. It may well be the most culturally significant of them all.

[Soubhagya]

No one is questioning my reasoning on differentiating anti-heroes and villains. Everyone agrees with me. I thought someone would disagree with me on what kind of villain could be considered sympathetic.

I just saw the movie and I'm still digesting it. I thought there were scenes where Killmonger was sympathetic and scenes where he was not. He was a bit too ruthless to be truly sympathetic although his motivations were sympathetic.

Overall, I'd put the movie up there with the first Avengers, the first Iron-Man and Civil War among the best of the Marvel movies. I wouldn't really say where it stood among the four because it would depend on my mood at the time. It may well be the most culturally significant of them all.

I am agreeing with you. In some scenes he felt like a more sympathetic character. At others he was too ruthless. But undoubtedly his motivations were sympathetic. I find him a well written anda well crafted villain. One of the best MCU villains till date. MCU is slowly catching up in the villain department.

By design their films were made so as to downplay the villain and highlight the hero. But it has been a consistent complaint so far. Vulture, Killmonger and some people say Hela are good villains. That's within a year. Highlighting a villain isn't needed in every film. But when they desired to they did a really good job. Look at the praise for Killmonger. People are saying he's better then even Loki. I won't go that far. Loki is by far the best villain. But Killmonger is a really good villain. There are things which can be problems for some people. But overall i say its a very good job.

Where it ranks among my top MCU films? I am not quite sure right now. Let me see all of them. I still haven't watched Thor:The Dark World and Thor:Ragnarok. Its definitely in the top levels with Avengers, Civil War, Winter Soldier, and a couple of others.

[Midvillian1322]

No one is questioning my reasoning on differentiating anti-heroes and villains. Everyone agrees with me. I thought someone would disagree with me on what kind of villain could be considered sympathetic.




I am agreeing with you. In some scenes he felt like a more sympathetic character. At others he was too ruthless. But undoubtedly his motivations were sympathetic. I find him a well written anda well crafted villain. One of the best MCU villains till date. MCU is slowly catching up in the villain department.

By design their films were made so as to downplay the villain and highlight the hero. But it has been a consistent complaint so far. Vulture, Killmonger and some people say Hela are good villains. That's within a year. Highlighting a villain isn't needed in every film. But when they desired to they did a really good job. Look at the praise for Killmonger. People are saying he's better then even Loki. I won't go that far. Loki is by far the best villain. But Killmonger is a really good villain. There are things which can be problems for some people. But overall i say its a very good job.

Where it ranks among my top MCU films? I am not quite sure right now. Let me see all of them. I still haven't watched Thor:The Dark World and Thor:Ragnarok. Its definitely in the top levels with Avengers, Civil War, Winter Soldier, and a couple of others.

I rather liked Ego as Well. The last 4 villains were Ego,Vulture,Hela,And Killmonger. Imo Hela was the weakest but we had a really good anti-hero Loki in that movie so it worked for me.