Black Panther *Spoilers*

[ZeonsSilverStar]

I went to see Game Night tonight at the movies and over heard this middle age white couple make a comment saying Black Panther was too political and it shouldn’t have dealt with race or other issues related to being African or African American. It took all I had NOT to comment and just walked past them shaking my head.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion whenever I see people say they don't want politics in comic book movies and can't help but think "I bet they loved Captain America and X-men".

[remydat]

Not to mention America.

Well I figured we could start with obviously backwards countries as referencing America would just get some people up in arms. The fact is having advanced tech does not mean you are socially or morally upstanding.

I mean the Chinese had gunpowder long before the West nations. They simply used it for fireworks and to a limited extent warfare while the Europeans used it largely for warfare and then proceeded to subjugate and enslave as many people as they could using that advanced tech. So it should be perfectly obvious technology does not equal social and moral development. Wakanda is simply a more extreme example of this most basic fact of the human condition. History is littered with examples of societies that develop technology without the developing the moral capacity to wield it appropriately.

[DrNewGod]

Finally saw it. The most powerful statement to me of the entire film was Killmonger's burning of the herbs. Perhaps it reasonated so strongly with me after hearing a US President suggest a President-for-Life might not be a bad thing for the US.

[DrNewGod]

I'm very ambivalent about Black Panther.

It has many positive qualities. Much as he did in Avengers: Age of Ultron, Andy Serkis completely steals the movie as Klaue, and the absolute worst thing about Black Panther is that it kills him off. The bit where he starts talking about dropping his album was utterly hilarious. I also really enjoyed Letitia Wright as Shuri, though I'm not sure why the costume designer felt the need to keep accenting her jaw line. Some of the costumes were really great.

It had many more problems. I find the politics surrounding this movie very weird. I'm a progressive liberal, but I often find that the "liberal progressive politics" that surrounds pop culture is often hilarious shortsighted and shallow, and I see a lot of that happening with this movie. I found the entire presentation of Wakanda extremely racist and offensive, and it's kind of blowing my mind that so many so-called progressives are lauding this movie.

The Wakandans are the Noble Savage archetype, and pretty brazenly so. There is a vague attempt to deny it by having the Wakandans have "advanced technology," but their technology is so advanced that the Wakandan's tech embodies Clarke's Third Law. Wakandan technology serves as either plot device, or is used to make primitive technology into magic technology. For example, instead of using a sensible modern weapon like firearm, laser gun or thematic "sonic blaster," you have the Wakandans using magic spears, magic swords and magic shields. You can tell that Wakandans are Noble Savages because you could dismiss all claims that they are an advanced society and just claim instead they are a magical society and almost nothing would change. The changes that would occur would be almost entirely cosmetic -- the pseudo-quinjets are the only thing that would require actual work to translate into a fantasy equivalent.

That's because there is literally nothing advanced about Wakanda except the technology, which ends up being so advanced as to be magic.

Consider this: When Ross is shot in the spine, the Wakandans take him home for treatment. Of course, one doesn't expect to find doctors in an ancient, magical tribal society. And we don't find any doctors in Wakanda, we don't even have hospitals, just magic beads and magic tables and 24 hours later you're magically healed. Because vibranium is magic.

Or consider this: Apparently W'Kabi lives in a wooden hut. He has a magic shield cloak and magic sword and he lives in a wood hut. Which would make total sense if he was a magical Noble Savage archetype, but doesn't make sense at all if he's a security director in the most advanced nation in the world.

I could ignore this, but the movie hammers you over the head with it by making ritual combat for rulership a central element of the plot. Ritual combat for leadership is a feature of primitive, barbarian societies -- of savages, whether noble savages or the other kind. It's not a feature of advanced societies. Democracy, the rule of law, these are features of an advanced society. The idea that the king's vicious, homicidal cousin can show up out of the blue and challenge the king to a fight to the death for absolute control of the kingdom and everyone in the Wakandan "government" is basically like "Yeah, this totally makes sense." is just crazy. And really, forget all about Kilmonger. The movie practically starts with a radical, ultra-isolationist, anti-technologist who would dismantle centuries of Wakandan development coming within one lucky blow of seizing the government, and nobody stops to suggest this is an incredibly stupid way to run a country.

The scene where Nakia and Okoye attempt to have a serious, intellectual discussion about this is hysterical, because clearly Okoye is insane. Her position could plausibly come from Noble Savage from a Hidden Magic Kingdom, who understands loyalty and duty in a primitive sense, but is unfamiliar with modern concepts like democracy -- but we're supposed to believe that Okoye, who is entirely aware of the existence of constitutional monarchies, democracy, and representative government, can't see the giant gaping flaw in her own argument: namely that ritual combat to determine leadership of the most "advanced" nation in the world is crazy.

In the end, Black Panther becomes the story of the Prince of the Noble Panther Savages from the Magical Land of Noble Savages, whose secret cousin shows up, kinda beats him in ritual combat, all so he can arm poor people in other lands with Wakanda's magic spears. Then there's a big sword vs spear fight, and the hero and villain have a fist fight in a magic cave. The plot really doesn't have anything to do with technology, but rather magic. And it really should bother people that this movie basically says "Let's imagine a world where an African nation has the wealth and technology of the first world (as defined by this existing set of sci-fi movies), what would that be like?" and the answer we get is "Magical Noble Savages." I mean...really? This is the best we can do? It was just very disappointing.

The depiction of Wakanda's tech is rooted in the source material as surely as the Asgardian tech is, as is the depiction of succession ritual. Your point about racial subtext is valid, but how much of the source material should they have given away? How do you go about making a Mythic Isolated and Advanced Culture both recognizably and yet uniquely African to a global audience?

[Master Planner]

Finally saw it. The most powerful statement to me of the entire film was Killmonger's burning of the herbs. Perhaps it reasonated so strongly with me after hearing a US President suggest a President-for-Life might not be a bad thing for the US.

The danger in Trump's words is that these thoughts represent the thoughts of a great part of the elite. The rich and powerful of a nation would easily prefer a strongman in order to secure their status and the common people will cheer the savior and the leader who brought stability.Unfortunately,is a trend worldwide.

[Soubhagya]

It's just so needlessly convoluted. Kilmonger's goal is to take control of the Wakandan throne so he can wage war on the world. Because he has royal blood and a War Dog tattoo, he can literally walk into Wakanda and challenge T'Challa at any time. He has no actual need for Klaue at all. So he's just bringing them Klaue's corpse as a welcoming gift. And that's where everything gets completely silly. He could just kill Klaue at the museum and bring the corpse to Wakanda. Instead, he plays this incredibly dumb game where he let's T'Challa capture Klaue, then kidnaps him back, then kills him. Let's look at all the possible points of failure for this dumb, dumb plan:

• In the casino fight, Black Panther or a Dora Milaje kills Klaue instead of capturing him.
• Klaue is in a fatal traffic accident fleeing Black Panther.
• The CIA agrees to had Klaue over, Black Panther packs him onto a jet and flies him back to Wakanda before Kilmonger can rescue him.
• They decide to interrogate Klaue on the second floor or in a different office.

And let's not forget that literally the ONLY reason Kilmonger's rescue works is because the Wakandans eschew "primitive" weapons like guns in favor of legitimately primitive weapons like spears. Shuri may be a technological genius, but she still suffers from Wakanda Selective Stupidity. It's literally the only way to explain why the magic suit she made for T'Challa has NO RANGED WEAPONS. I mean seriously, if T'Challa and the Dore Milaje had just had some GUNS then Kilmonger's whole dumb plan would have blown up in his face. He and his cohorts would have been rushing into a face full of gunfire.

And huge parts of Kilmonger's plot are entirely dependent on chance. There's no way he could have known that W'Kabi would be the first Wakandan he'd encounter, and that W'Kabi would support him.



Why would anyone choose to live in a hut when they could live in an air-conditioned house? While I'm sure it could be explained, what makes this problematic is that W'Kabi's residence is the only residence we see, and it feeds directly into the Noble Savage archetype. Even the explanation you offer -- a desire to be closer to nature -- is straight out of the Noble Savage playbook.



Well, yes. It's a very racist concept that strips people of their humanity and turns them into metaphors. It's especially problematic when applied to Africans, who are often plagued by more negative versions of the stereotype. When people all across Africa are fighting to be rid of racist stereotypes that reduce all Africans to "spear-chucking people who live in huts and have bones through their noses," it's extremely disappointing to see "the most advanced nation in Africa" be portrayed as a place where...spear-chucking tribal warriors live in huts.



You can definitely argue that, but I think it's handled differently. It's the difference between science fiction and fantasy, or science fantasy.

Iron Man sometimes gets ridiculous with its technology, almost always in the extreme lengths they go to make sure Robert Downey Jr. doesn't have to spend any time on set putting on a practical costume. But even there, we've at least seen the technology develop over time, based on Tony's constant research. And we've got plenty of scenes of him actually developing the technology, and stories that deal with the real world consequences of developing new military technologies -- imitation, government interference, technological set backs, etc.

And I think that, with the exception of Asgard (which is explicitly an appeal to Clarke's Third Law), the technology within the MCU has so far been treated as science fiction, not plot magic.



I think you are misunderstanding my point. Doctors and hospitals are evidence of an advanced society. In fact, I'm pretty sure we actually did see doctors and a hospital at the end of Civil War. Yet there are no doctors in the movie Black Panther, which is the point. We don't ever see any real evidence of an advanced society. Shuri could easily be a witch who lives in a magic cave, and it wouldn't change the story at all.

What about the possibility that Killmonger wanted to show BP as ineffective? Making him fail at first and doing it by himself. In order to win support at the court. To show himself as more capable then T'Challa.

Your points are valid. The plan doesn't really make a lot of sense. But just like Skyfall it does not take away from its being a really good film. Skyfall is my favorite Bond film. And Silva among my favorite villains. But his plans are terrible. Even Bond's plan to save M makes no sense. Take her away from the security to his old home in some far off place, leaving breadcrumbs along the way so that Silva could track them. All he had for protection was few guns and an Alfred Pennyworth of his own. It didn't work so well too. But i love the film as other parts of the film are so good. But i can see why one may not like it. And its a fair point. I wave away that implausible plan by that explanation. Why he was doing this can be explained. Just as most parts of Bond or Silva's plan. But there's no going around the fact that the plans were bad. For intelligent villains they aren't so intelligent.

I don't really see desiring to live in nature as something backward. People wish to go away from problems of big cities, its pollution, and other problems. He wanted to keep Rhinos in their natural habitat.

I did not understand Noble Savage concept very clearly. I think its still lacking. The way you explained it has shown problems more clearly. I remember the weird scenes in Independence Day. As if people in Africa are still living in jungles wearing leaves and throwing spears. That's problematic. I wonder why no one has brought it up? I don't hear any such stuff. My guess is because they did show Wakanda as a really advanced country in terms of technology.

I can see your point in difference between Iron Man and Wakanda'a tech. The way its handled making it Clarke's law. I think very few people had problems with it. (You are the first and only one so far whom i have heard raising the point). Does Shuri's scenes in her lab qualify? T'Challa is no genius as Tony. He's like the Bond to Shuri's Q. I think that much shall be okay. We don't see how Q invents the implausible gadgets. They are Bond movies. Not Q movies. Similarly, this is Black Panther not Shuri.

[David Walton]

Killmonger's plan was hardly complex or convoluted, all things considered. He required T'Challa to fail, and had the ability to track Klaw within a reasonable distance.

More than that, Killmonger was depicted as a trained operative, in a world where trained operatives like him could fight off alien invasions or swarms of robots. In addition, Killmonger was working hand in hand with Klaw's people, allowing him access to any resources he might have needed. The plan wasn't fool proof by any measure, but what he came up with is/was easily improvised by a seasoned operative.

Yep. It was a sensible plan as far as these things go and I'm sure he was reconciled to the idea that it might not succeed. He was very much an 'all or nothing' strategist.

[Tazirai]

Also Killmonger knew of Klaue for years, and had contact information from him that his dad had lying about.

One of the things I see online is this... "How and where did Killmonger know where and who to bring to Wakanda, and why was W'kabi there? PLOT HOLE!"

Nope! If you pay attention, then you'd know that His dad probably told him how to get there and all about Klaue being a wanted person in Wakanda. Hence Klaues brand.
Also, He probably knew where to fly in without getting blown out of the sky, and for a nation that advanced, they'd know when an Outsider was approaching. Since it was a plane coming in, this was a special case where the "Boss" or "Manager" needed to show up, not just Joe Q nobody.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Also Killmonger knew of Klaue for years, and had contact information from him that his dad had lying about.

One of the things I see online is this... "How and where did Killmonger know where and who to bring to Wakanda, and why was W'kabi there? PLOT HOLE!"

Nope! If you pay attention, then you'd know that His dad probably told him how to get there and all about Klaue being a wanted person in Wakanda. Hence Klaues brand.
Also, He probably knew where to fly in without getting blown out of the sky, and for a nation that advanced, they'd know when an Outsider was approaching. Since it was a plane coming in, this was a special case where the "Boss" or "Manager" needed to show up, not just Joe Q nobody.

I don't think Killmonger needed Klaw to bring him to Wakanda. Everyone knew the country existed, they just didn't know what it was

[Dangerous]

I finally got round to seeing this yesterday, overall it was better than I expected and a clear cut above the last four MCU films -Dr Strange/GoTG2/Homecoming/Ragnarok which were all disposable cookie cutter 6/10 meh for me. I rate Black Panther 8/10.

The two best characters in the film were Erik Killmonger (the first great MCU villain?! Holy s**t!) and Ulysses Klaue.
I was genuinely invested in the story and found the film to be compelling from start to finish, but then I am Marvel fanboy.
The first scene reminded me of 'Coming to America', LOL.
The costumes, the design of Wakanda, cinematography and all that stuff was amazing, but ultimately that is all surface dressing, and the most interesting thing about the story was the politics beneath it.

I knew when this film was announced, what the ending of the story was going to be.
I knew they would wuss out on having T'Challa remain isolationist with Wakanda and would not be able to resist having him go globalist in the end.
T'Challa would never do this in real life if he has this super intellect because a) Wakanda has been highly prosperous for generations so far so why change (even tho this is nonsense and would not work in the real world) and b) because he would know this would open Wakanda up to all kinds of threats.

This along with having Shuri take the place of the brains/inventor, and also having his cohorts occasionally take digs at him, him freezing at the beginning and loosing to Killmonger in the fight for the crown are all endemic of this film's main flaw- they pussyfied T'Challa. I want to watch the Black Panther, not the Lion King!

BP was a badass in CA:CW, but like Homecoming, they cut off the protagonists balls in his first solo feature.
It's funny how both Spidey and BP were way better portrayed in a Captain America film, ... I'm so glad the Cap team is writing & directing Avengers 3&4.

The other main problem I had was that T'Challa did not really have any arc, nor any reason for us to root for him.
He got his ass beat fair and square by Killmonger, and then cheats his way back, illegally ingesting the herb again so he and his guard can overthrow the new king...
OK.

On the plus side there's no doubt this film has more political depth and relevance to it than any other MCU film thus far, and it's great that the T'Challa and Killmonger's stances can be interpreted in different ways.
Coogler is an asset to the MCU and I appreciated the minimal use of goofy quips that have previously ruined so many MCU films.

[Twickster]

I don't think Killmonger needed Klaw to bring him to Wakanda. Everyone knew the country existed, they just didn't know what it was

He needed Klau to get *into* Wakanda. Wakandan tattoo or not, I don't imagine just any shmuck would be able to go in, not to mention getting an audience in front of the king. He simply needed to be the "hero" that brought in Klau to do that.

[Scott Taylor]

Pretty sure the Wakanda tattoo allows one to come into the country. Thats what the movie seemed to say. But I have no idea what might happen if you were flying straight towards the barrier and did not have the tattoo key.

[Midvillian1322]

He needed Klau to get *into* Wakanda. Wakandan tattoo or not, I don't imagine just any shmuck would be able to go in, not to mention getting an audience in front of the king. He simply needed to be the "hero" that brought in Klau to do that.

Him bringing Klaue to justice won over some Wakandans to his side. He had no reason to know about W'Kabi but he did know Klaue killed some Wakandans when he stole the Vibranium. So the act might win some ppl over.

Also ppl complaining about Wakanda using primitive weapons like Spears makes no sense to me. We bitch when they change too much from the comics and now we're are saying they shoulda ignored that and changed it. Yes I wish Tchalla had some energy daggers at least for range but Shuri needs something to invent in BP2. With the purple energy look of the new suit I was sure that it was gonna absorb the force and then he transfer it into energy weapons. When it just randomly after too much damage blasts it out was a let down. I also didn't like the way the suit looked with his eyes showing. Just keep the lenses down. But my complaints don't got past that really and some questionable CGI at certain parts.

[PyroTwilight]

Not to mention tropes or otherwise T'Challa and Wakandan's as a whole have a huge air of doing things in a certain way. Which is both great and awful for both.

They'd overall dislike ranged weapons or weapons with too much range for almost that explicit reason. IE those weapons are for cheaters or the weak, not those with actual or moral strength.

Their customs while growing over centuries are still rooted in the past and to be honest that's what's true of essentially all customs to some extent.

Wakanda at the end of the day isn't all that different technology wise from say Asgardians when you look at it. I mean they have such advanced technology bordering on real magic yet all their things look ancient and just about impossible.


As for the comics while Wakanda is still relatively cut off from the world it's not nearly as so. I mean Ms. Marvel's friend Bruno is an exchange student there at the moment as it is to other international students. Other similar invitations I'd guess are open as well.

[Midvillian1322]

Not to mention tropes or otherwise T'Challa and Wakandan's as a whole have a huge air of doing things in a certain way. Which is both great and awful for both.

They'd overall dislike ranged weapons or weapons with too much range for almost that explicit reason. IE those weapons are for cheaters or the weak, not those with actual or moral strength.

Their customs while growing over centuries are still rooted in the past and to be honest that's what's true of essentially all customs to some extent.

Wakanda at the end of the day isn't all that different technology wise from say Asgardians when you look at it. I mean they have such advanced technology bordering on real magic yet all their things look ancient and just about impossible.


As for the comics while Wakanda is still relatively cut off from the world it's not nearly as so. I mean Ms. Marvel's friend Bruno is an exchange student there at the moment as it is to other international students. Other similar invitations I'd guess are open as well.

Yea in the comics Tchalla has straight up said he can make a much better ironman suit then Tony but he sees it as a hindrance and crutch. Same way Steve sees Tonya suits. Now Tchalla might be be talking out his ass but I believe him