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  1. #1
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    Default Does anyone hate MCU films?

    I mean, just general hatred of the Marvel Cinematic Universe? The excessive use of comedy during scenes where you need to lay off the yuks? The disposable antagonists? The way the films are shot in a uniform pattern?

    I consider myself one of the card carrying members of this group, after originally finding embarrassment in feeling more enjoyment out of watching DC movies.

    This isn't me trying to be a hipster for the sake of being counterculture, or one of those subhuman slobs who are hating on films since I apparently find the notion of movies using women and minorities in positions of power and influence to be alarming to my masculinity and my dick, but rather coming from someone looking at this from a perspective of this being a long term project and wondering what is so special about everything.

    Naturally, there will be those coming in, and trying to destroy my arguments, but I'm not making these to say these films suck; I'm making these arguments to explain why I personally can't stand them.

    1. The Villains. This is my big one, and has always been, and always will be. So, it's going to be the bulk of the argument. For one, they die. A lot. In your standard cinema structure, the antagonist usually dies at the end of the film since there is no intention of them redeeming themselves as a means of getting their karmic retribution for all their wrongdoings throughout the film, and in the comic book movies from Tim Burton's Batman all the way through the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy and even The Dark Knight Rises, they adhered to this formula in spite of comic books screwing around with characters cheating certain death given that unlike the comics medium (though there have been villains in Marvel and DC that have died and have stayed dead), films have to be finite and conclusive unless you plan on doing sequels, and even then, you rarely carry on the villain of the film unless said villain is the attraction (see virtually any horror franchise). I mean, pre-MCU, one exception to this rule was the Scarecrow from Batman Begins, who was reduced to a cameo in The Dark Knight since, well, that film had a much bigger antagonist. The reason why I am such a stickler and an asshole about this villainous death count is that the MCU is meant to be this overarching franchise meant to carry on for years and years, much like its comic book counterpart, and it would be like introducing an antagonist in each issue, and then killing the villain at the end of the issue, which while not sounding like the most apt comparison, typically has that feeling. The other problem I dealt with is that the villains fall into one of two categories; either they exist just to get punched, or they are fortunate enough to motivate the plot. While people can gush about villains motivating the plot, I personally believe only a small portion have been lucky enough to do so. Loki was the first one as he did something unheard of in the MCU; he lived through his first movie, and was used as the main threat in the first Avengers film, where even after the Avengers team was able to take him down, he was still kicking, and it wasn't until his run-in with Thanos that finally killed him. As much as I complained about Thanos's accomplishments ultimately meaning nothing in the grand scheme (which I still do believe, change my mind) given how the majority of Endgame is about reversing his actions and ensuring he doesn't exist anymore, the fact that he loomed for so long and was given the opportunity to be given his glory helped establish something. The only other villain remotely capable of being considered in this class I believe was Killmonger, who unfortunately, is in the "one and done" class, as his character was a villain, but rather than just being homicidal for the sake of evil's sake, his character was that of one who approached it from a world-weary perspective and didn't want to be pushed around. The vast majority of the other villains, however, fall into the former, where they exist as punchable objects that show up, make a comment or two about why they are doing their thing, get into the big fight, and die. Malekith, Ronan, Yellowjacket, Hela (yeah, she's a constant gush for the latter, but I firmly consider her as merely a punchable object), Red Skull... they don't get much time to establish themselves as threats, and the ones that remotely do only do so in that obligatory sense that reminds me of some Japanese shonen series where our hero has to get a power boost to take out this new villain. In comics, it's okay to focus more on the heroes, in my opinion, as they are the ones to drive the story, while the villains serve as the obstacle, while in the films, the opposite occurs; the villains are the ones that drive the story, as they are the ones that create the conflict, and if you have a bland or perishable baddie waiting (or even a good baddie that you know ain't leaving this film alive), it just drives me away from watching.

    2. Inappropriate comedy. Comedy is subjective, I know. That being said, I feel like comedic situations during scenes of drama or intense conflict take you away from the immersion and are only there for memetic purposes so the average person can go on Twitter or Facebook and go, "I liked it when they broke up the action and made the joke". Now, having a film with too little comedy winds up giving you a depressing slog, but again; if you have a serious moment, don't break up the moment just to sneak in a bit of humor to loosen the tension. Ideally, you use the comedy after the serious part is over to soften the blow of what just happened.

    3. Processed factory cinematography. The films are generally shot the same way, and produced the same way. I look at this more of a Disney decision than of those directing the films, as Bob Iger has made it clear he wants to minimize the risk in blockbuster films. And yet, it's due to this that these films just wind up giving that same monotony that "if you've seen one, you've seen them all".

    I don't know; I'm probably just some ignorant rube who doesn't appreciate fine art.

  2. #2
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    "Does anyone else" questions always have the same answer: yes. Plenty of people don't like these movies. You can find several of them on the X-Books, Spider-Man and DC boards on this forum for instance.

  3. #3
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    I don't believe that villains have to be the driving force of the movies. It isn't even necessary for the movies to be good.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    It would be nice to see a middle ground between Marvel killing off the villain in most films and Fox allowing the same villain to take up a huge pile of screen time in every single movie. It would have been nice to see not-Magneto get some development over there.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    2. Inappropriate comedy. Comedy is subjective, I know. That being said, I feel like comedic situations during scenes of drama or intense conflict take you away from the immersion and are only there for memetic purposes so the average person can go on Twitter or Facebook and go, "I liked it when they broke up the action and made the joke". Now, having a film with too little comedy winds up giving you a depressing slog, but again; if you have a serious moment, don't break up the moment just to sneak in a bit of humor to loosen the tension. Ideally, you use the comedy after the serious part is over to soften the blow of what just happened.
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.

    Yeah. That's one of my favorite videos on what was wrong with Marvel movies post-Avengers 1. Although I do think he misses the point of some jokes. Like in the scene where the Guardians all stand up to show they're going to fight. Rocket Raccoon makes a joke because he is not on board with this and isn't as ready to risk his life as the others are. It's an important character moment because it shows that he isn't there yet and is only standing up because he's been shamed into doing so. It takes a whole other movie for him to reach that point.

  7. #7
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    That video says Marvel's approach wont work for "lasting story telling"

    And people are taking that video seriously? Jesus.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    That video says Marvel's approach wont work for "lasting story telling"

    And people are taking that video seriously? Jesus.
    I enjoy most of the movies, but they don't linger in my mind after I've seen them, and I can barely remember much of what happened just a few days later.

  9. #9
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    To be fair, Infinity War and Endgame largely avoided that problem. There were no jokes from when Thanos was threatening to snap his fingers again through Tony's funeral. No jokes from the moment Thanos threatens to kill Tony till the end in Infinity War. To me the movies where the inappropriate bathos caused the biggest problems were Dr. Strange and Thor Ragnorok.

  10. #10
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    Hate is such an ugly word. I don't like Disney. And I like Disney less and less, the more power it gains. I also don't like Robert Downey, Jr. In his early days as an actor, I was a fan, but somewhere along the way, I soured on him and now he's just too annoying to watch on screen. So the combination of my dislike for Disney and my dislike for RDJ has stopped me from seeing a lot of the Marvel movies.

  11. #11
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Comic relief is a long-standing tool in drama. It's perfectly legitimate. And some of what you're criticizing falls under that.

    There is a problem in the MCU with bathos.

    Yeah, I've kind of had this same problem.

    Especially with Ragnarok.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    I sure as hell have no love for those awful Thor movies, that's for sure.

    Humor should be a sword, not a boulder moved around aimlessly by a drunk cave man.

  13. #13
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Hate is a strong word. I feel hate comes from 2 sources, 1- contempt bred out of exception for a perceived better way of doing or behaving some other way or 2- Sheer jealousy. Out of what looks another way, seems acceptable but where the principal doesn't and couldn't have the same outcomes. People can hate black folks in many cases because of what perceptions they have regarding what they are able to accomplish, do and feel under the harshest of conditions. Contrasting with one own life with more accesses and permissions, they are not able to produce half of what they perceive said black folks have in terms of whatever.

    I'm a Colts fan. I hate the Titans, I don't wanna hear shit about them so I'm in hate box 1. The Tennessee Titans are hardly the MCU so I'm not real sure which leans you one war or another as far as the actual origins of the hate stem.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    coming from someone looking at this from a perspective of this being a long term project and wondering what is so special about everything.
    So special is relative. I have a fondness for comic characters, I did through long boxes still looking for old issues, love doing that. Even if I didn't and went straight to the new stuff, that is which the MCU emanated from. That part at the root is still kinda special. Beyond that it's a serialized set of movies. If you hate all movie serials going back to the black and white days of The Shadow and Captain Marvel and Batman, that's fine but the MCU is fruit from the same tree. I miss MCU (and DC) movies in chunks, maybe I catch up on streaming, maybe I buy a physical or more than likely I don't get to it at all but part of me still finds it novel to see Iron Man take off in the air on a big screen. Granted that was way cooler before the all the movies are filmed on a green screen but whatev. I feel you can be a part of a fan community of capes without ever going to the movies so it seems out of place to take aim and shoot so broadly.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    1. The Villains.2. Inappropriate comedy. 3. Processed factory cinematography.

    I don't know; I'm probably just some ignorant rube who doesn't appreciate fine art.
    For sake of argument let's say pretty much most movies DON'T suffer from the above (they can and do). Homogenized or standardized entertainment is not up front and center to everybody. Growing up in the broadcast TV days and going into the VHS days, I wasn't a Disney kid. I'm not a Disney adult. One of the parents my kid goes to daycare with, her brother married a chick who insisted they get hitched in Disney World and he did it and she's a grown ass women(again, perception). Fuck... I wouldn't want to even be invited to something like that. I'm more of a Hasbro kind of guy fwiw. Someone invites me to a function set to look like Cybertron... ehhh, I'd think about it pretty tough. So, I would argue that the real focus of your ire is the Disney sheen. I feel you've said something akin in the past, forgive me if I'm wrong. If that is the case than I can rock with it on some level. Having that suit tailored to the Marvel brand is tough no doubt. Disney is the poster of all ills of corporate overlord conglomeration. Hate is a strong word, I'd ask where does it really come from.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  14. #14
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    It’s like Burger King or McDonalds. They are very generic, consistent, fill you up at the time, but you know it’s not the best and too much isn’t a good thing..

  15. #15
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    The thing is that not every Marvel movie has had that problem with bathos. It was most notable in Dr. Strange and Thor Ragnarok, and it also popped up in Civil War, Spider-Man Hmecoming, the Ant-Man movies. But it wasn't a problem in Iron Man, or the original Avengers, as the video pointed out, or the first 2 Captain America movies. The video was made in 2017, when it seemed every Marvel movie had to be a full-on comedy like Guardians of the Galaxy. At that point it could have been argued that the MCU was coasting on the successes of Iron Man 1, Avengers 1, and Winter Soldier and was deteriorating into a parody of itself. But Infinity War and Endgame, while telling their share of jokes, reversed that trend and told a serious story without undercutting important scenes with jokes. Tony tells Peter he's an Avenger- no jokes. Thanos tells Star Lord he killed Gamora - no jokes. Strange gives away the time stone - no jokes. Thanos reveals he destroyed the stones so people can't be brought back - no jokes. Tony meets his father - no jokes. That's why those movies worked so well. When a big emotional moment happened they let it.

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