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  1. #31
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    The problem as I see it is comparable to the idea of faith. "To those who believe no proof is needed, to those who doubt no proof is sufficient".

    So the more you try to apply real-world physics and plausible work-arounds , the more the people criticizing will ask for them. You give them an energy source to justify the powers (the sun) and they begin stating the amount of ergs per square inch of skin Superman can absorb to limit his powers. You state he can survive in space by holding his breath and you get discussions on just how much air human lungs can hold and the amount of oxygen that can be extracted by them. It becomes a never ending circle where you spend more time calculating the physics of the powers than telling the stories. You limit the size of what he can lift and then have to explain or eliminate his ability to not be moved when hit by a large speeding object (car, truck, train ...) based on his mass vs the object's. Eventually he has more drawbacks than powers.

    I think it works better to just make his powers consistent but mysterious. Mister Terrific or Lex Luthor analyzes a feat of Superman's and points out all the ways it should not be possible, but at the end of the day it works. He is absorbing some type of energy under a yellow sun, but no one can precisely pinpoint it. They can only note the circumstances (kryptonite, distance/duration from the star, ...) that affect that energy working for him. He has no detectible means of propulsion but he can fly, even in space. He can shoot beams of heat from his eyes but no one can find an organ that would allow this or analyze what type of energy it actually is (biological, solar, psionic). But if writer A has his heat vision able to be reflected by mirrors or unable to affect lead then those limits remain even if they seem contrary to physics.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    The double standard is real,and imo BS.

    Superman should be the most powerful,non cosmic being,BUT his powers are tempered by the fact that he would destroy everything and kill everyone if he didn't control himself perfectly.
    I think it is simply a matter that Superman is so damn powerful that it becomes very hard to show that in a live action medium without making it look cartoonish or horrific.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I think it is simply a matter that Superman is so damn powerful that it becomes very hard to show that in a live action medium without making it look cartoonish or horrific.

    Hard how? There has been many tv shows and movies with then doing it just fine.

    Also,the only thing you have to do is tone down other characters,and Superman doesbt have to be shown so over the top.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Hard how? There has been many tv shows and movies with then doing it just fine.
    There are no other tv shows or movies with characters that have proper comic book Superman's power level.

    Even Supergirl in her show gets seriously toned down from what a comic book Kryptonian is supposed to be.

  5. #35
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    The double standard is real,and imo BS.

    Superman should be the most powerful,non cosmic being,BUT his powers are tempered by the fact that he would destroy everything and kill everyone if he didn't control himself perfectly.

    BTW I love tactile telekinesis
    Generally, this is my thinking as well - to me, Superman has been evolving "power wise" (both mentally and physically) over the years into a cosmic being that began in his "power cosmic-infancy", for the lack of of a better term, all the while growing allowing him to do and preform greater and greater feats. So, for this being (Superman) be able to think on and preform feats on a quantum level is very much "par" for the course but, he does so on a precise "balanced" level which prevents him from doing something totally radical that could be full of other consequences thereafter, as the interesting part would be seeing him wrestle with, and thinking through the process before going into type of motion.

    With all this "hoopla" going around, people forget that Superman was created to be the perfect being, the best of man and alike kind's hope and dreams of which "the best of" the Gold and Silver Age(s) reflected, notice I said "the best of" as there were more than a few "clunkers" in there to offset if, not destroy the balance of those ages. Over those years - up until today, Superman should have progressed at a nice steady clip, a pace that would allow for discovery - if not, a "catharsis" at times for both "Superman" and the reader to understand and appreciate with Superman having a few those "Wow" moments of "Great Scott, I didn't know I could do that??"

  6. #36
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    There was a time there, before the yellow sun theory took hold (which I think was in 1960), where all of Superman's powers was explained according to a gravity theory. When I say explained, I mean they just said it's gravity and didn't go beyond that to get into the mathematics.

    Perhaps they should have stuck with that theory, as we really don't know a lot about gravity and how it fits into quantum mechanics.

    From Wikipedia:
    Quantum gravity (QG) is a field of theoretical physics that seeks to describe gravity according to the principles of quantum mechanics, and where quantum effects cannot be ignored, such as near compact astrophysical objects where the effects of gravity are strong.

    The current understanding of gravity is based on Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, which is formulated within the framework of classical physics. On the other hand, the other three fundamental forces of physics are described within the framework of quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, radically different formalisms for describing physical phenomena. It is sometimes argued that a quantum mechanical description of gravity is necessary on the grounds that one cannot consistently couple a classical system to a quantum one. . .

    While a quantum theory of gravity may be needed in order to reconcile general relativity with the principles of quantum mechanics, difficulties arise when one attempts to apply the usual prescriptions of quantum field theory to the force of gravity via graviton bosons. The problem is that the theory one gets in this way is not renormalizable and therefore cannot be used to make meaningful physical predictions. As a result, theorists have taken up more radical approaches to the problem of quantum gravity, the most popular approaches being string theory and loop quantum gravity. Although some quantum gravity theories, such as string theory, try to unify gravity with the other fundamental forces, others, such as loop quantum gravity, make no such attempt; instead, they make an effort to quantize the gravitational field while it is kept separate from the other forces.

    Strictly speaking, the aim of quantum gravity is only to describe the quantum behavior of the gravitational field and should not be confused with the objective of unifying all fundamental interactions into a single mathematical framework. A theory of quantum gravity that is also a grand unification of all known interactions is sometimes referred to as The Theory of Everything (TOE). While any substantial improvement into the present understanding of gravity would aid further work towards unification, the study of quantum gravity is a field in its own right with various branches having different approaches to unification.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The problem as I see it is comparable to the idea of faith. "To those who believe no proof is needed, to those who doubt no proof is sufficient".

    So the more you try to apply real-world physics and plausible work-arounds , the more the people criticizing will ask for them. You give them an energy source to justify the powers (the sun) and they begin stating the amount of ergs per square inch of skin Superman can absorb to limit his powers. You state he can survive in space by holding his breath and you get discussions on just how much air human lungs can hold and the amount of oxygen that can be extracted by them. It becomes a never ending circle where you spend more time calculating the physics of the powers than telling the stories. You limit the size of what he can lift and then have to explain or eliminate his ability to not be moved when hit by a large speeding object (car, truck, train ...) based on his mass vs the object's. Eventually he has more drawbacks than powers.

    I think it works better to just make his powers consistent but mysterious. Mister Terrific or Lex Luthor analyzes a feat of Superman's and points out all the ways it should not be possible, but at the end of the day it works. He is absorbing some type of energy under a yellow sun, but no one can precisely pinpoint it. They can only note the circumstances (kryptonite, distance/duration from the star, ...) that affect that energy working for him. He has no detectible means of propulsion but he can fly, even in space. He can shoot beams of heat from his eyes but no one can find an organ that would allow this or analyze what type of energy it actually is (biological, solar, psionic). But if writer A has his heat vision able to be reflected by mirrors or unable to affect lead then those limits remain even if they seem contrary to physics.
    In regards to religion, that's a fallback defense when facts and evidence are backing someone into a corner. But the comic book universe is one where the Laws of Physics are being ignored constantly by almost every character. In the realm of the superhero genre, trying to explain it can only be absurd and selective.
    Power with Girl is better.

  8. #38
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I think it is simply a matter that Superman is so damn powerful that it becomes very hard to show that in a live action medium without making it look cartoonish or horrific.
    I dunno if cartoonish is a thing to fight. That's how he was created. I actually like a lot about the MoS movie, most things really, but there was the sense of it working against itself by being so serious.

    Although I wonder if the Nolan Batman is not seen as unintentionally cartoonish as Superman is inherently cartoonish. Even though they toned him down from the all-powerful comic Batman he was still a very ridiculous person with a ridiculous voice.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    There was a time there, before the yellow sun theory took hold (which I think was in 1960), where all of Superman's powers was explained according to a gravity theory. When I say explained, I mean they just said it's gravity and didn't go beyond that to get into the mathematics.

    Perhaps they should have stuck with that theory, as we really don't know a lot about gravity and how it fits into quantum mechanics.

    From Wikipedia:
    Quantum gravity (QG) is a field of theoretical physics that seeks to describe gravity according to the principles of quantum mechanics, and where quantum effects cannot be ignored, such as near compact astrophysical objects where the effects of gravity are strong.

    The current understanding of gravity is based on Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, which is formulated within the framework of classical physics. On the other hand, the other three fundamental forces of physics are described within the framework of quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, radically different formalisms for describing physical phenomena. It is sometimes argued that a quantum mechanical description of gravity is necessary on the grounds that one cannot consistently couple a classical system to a quantum one. . .

    While a quantum theory of gravity may be needed in order to reconcile general relativity with the principles of quantum mechanics, difficulties arise when one attempts to apply the usual prescriptions of quantum field theory to the force of gravity via graviton bosons. The problem is that the theory one gets in this way is not renormalizable and therefore cannot be used to make meaningful physical predictions. As a result, theorists have taken up more radical approaches to the problem of quantum gravity, the most popular approaches being string theory and loop quantum gravity. Although some quantum gravity theories, such as string theory, try to unify gravity with the other fundamental forces, others, such as loop quantum gravity, make no such attempt; instead, they make an effort to quantize the gravitational field while it is kept separate from the other forces.

    Strictly speaking, the aim of quantum gravity is only to describe the quantum behavior of the gravitational field and should not be confused with the objective of unifying all fundamental interactions into a single mathematical framework. A theory of quantum gravity that is also a grand unification of all known interactions is sometimes referred to as The Theory of Everything (TOE). While any substantial improvement into the present understanding of gravity would aid further work towards unification, the study of quantum gravity is a field in its own right with various branches having different approaches to unification.
    I think that theory was presented in combination of the; Earth's proximity to a yellow sun and Earth's gravity being much lighter the Krypton as we venture into Super-gravity... 11-dimensional Math... M - Theory --- The above would serve as a background to say that Superman has control over four of the fundamental forces of the Universe (Strong, Weak, Magnetic and Gravity) just by interacting with an object by agitating its structure and (speeding up, slowing down, increasing, decreasing etc...etc...) on subatomic level, then any one of his vast powers can, begin to be theorized into one unified Grand Theory which gives rise and explanation into Metaphysics!

  10. #40
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    No. Superman is a character in the DC universe, a place where the laws of physics are not really abided by. Limiting all of Superman's feats to be "realistic" would be boring in my opinion and, as I said, not necessary because the DC Universe isn't realistic in its depiction of physics.

  11. #41
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    Yeah, I would hand wave string theory, graviton bosons etc. Which suggests a multidimensional reality. Bosonic string theory has 26 dimensions; superstring theory 10; and M-theory 11. This means we can't directly observe all phenomena as they exist outside 4 dimensional spacetime. Jor-El had to have used other dimensions to get Kal-El from point A to point B in less time than it takes light to travel. And then you have stuff like the Phantom Zone and Mr. Mxyzptlk in the 5th dimension.

    I can see why Mort Weisinger wanted something simple like red sun/yellow sun. It's something any kid can understand. It's visual. And it has a simple on/off function. What with all the new Kryptonians that were popping up, it was easy to have this device to explain how they could have powers in one place, but not in another place. And it was easy to turn off Superman's powers when they wanted to do that kind of story.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    No. Superman is a character in the DC universe, a place where the laws of physics are not really abided by. Limiting all of Superman's feats to be "realistic" would be boring in my opinion and, as I said, not necessary because the DC Universe isn't realistic in its depiction of physics.
    Does any other character get as much scrutiny. I've heard people claim Flash is several orders of magnitude faster than the speed of light, which is utterly ridiculous. For example, how does he see where he is going?
    And they just explain that away with the "speed force", what-ever that is.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    There are no other tv shows or movies with characters that have proper comic book Superman's power level.

    Even Supergirl in her show gets seriously toned down from what a comic book Kryptonian is supposed to be.
    That's what im saying,if you tone down everybody,you can tone down Superman,but still make him win.



    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    Generally, this is my thinking as well - to me, Superman has been evolving "power wise" (both mentally and physically) over the years into a cosmic being that began in his "power cosmic-infancy", for the lack of of a better term, all the while growing allowing him to do and preform greater and greater feats. So, for this being (Superman) be able to think on and preform feats on a quantum level is very much "par" for the course but, he does so on a precise "balanced" level which prevents him from doing something totally radical that could be full of other consequences thereafter, as the interesting part would be seeing him wrestle with, and thinking through the process before going into type of motion.

    With all this "hoopla" going around, people forget that Superman was created to be the perfect being, the best of man and alike kind's hope and dreams of which "the best of" the Gold and Silver Age(s) reflected, notice I said "the best of" as there were more than a few "clunkers" in there to offset if, not destroy the balance of those ages. Over those years - up until today, Superman should have progressed at a nice steady clip, a pace that would allow for discovery - if not, a "catharsis" at times for both "Superman" and the reader to understand and appreciate with Superman having a few those "Wow" moments of "Great Scott, I didn't know I could do that??"
    I've never had a problem with how powerful Superman is,I don't want his powers curbed,I want his CONTROL tested.

  14. #44
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    All I know is that I lean toward the Silver Age power level end of the spectrum with Superman (as Siegel worked on his character into the 1960s) and feel Morrison and many others showed how Superman can be quite vulnerable nonetheless. I don't care for overexplaining his powers or weaknesses or etc. I don't need a science textbook on Superman's powers and how realistic or not they are as Superman is not real (as Grant Morrison would say (but Grant also thinks he's really real in a sense too!)).
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 02-24-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    All I know is that I lean toward the Silver Age power level end of the spectrum with Superman (as Siegel worked on his character into the 1960s) and feel Morrison and many others showed how Superman can be quite vulnerable nonetheless. I don't care for overexplaining his powers or weaknesses or etc. I don't need a science textbook on Superman's powers and how realistic or not they are as Superman is not real (as Grant Morrison would say (but Grant also thinks he's really real in a sense too!)).
    This. I think the thought process that you need to dampen down Superman's power levels to make stories work are usually the signs of a lesser creative mind not suited to the character. It is exactly the wrong approach to take to the character, or at least in the comics. Maggin had a pretty awesome quote about it that I will have to track down.

    I'm a little more patient with it in things like movies because it's over and done with in two hours or so so it doesn't get the chance to get boring month in and month out.

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