Do You Agree With Recent Changes to the Batwoman Character?

[Pohzee]

This discussion seems to be popping up in a few threads lately, so I'd like to make a place to put it. Do you agree with the changes to Kate Kane's character over the past few years?

This includes the retcon that establishes her as Bruce's first cousin and the revelation that her father was grooming her to be the leader of the evil military organization dubbed "The Colony."

[Barbatos666]

No, not at all.

[Caivu]

She's still, at her core, the same character she's always been. Certainly since Elegy fleshed her out from 52. Still motivated by the same things, for instance. She's just grown as a character since then, as well, and it's held. I love that about her, that constant growth and large degree of consistency.

As far as I'm concerned, Bruce and Kate have always been cousins. When that was revealed, I didn't know it was a reveal. I figured it was just something I'd missed in some other issue. So it doesn't register to me as any kind of change.

I have almost zero problems with the Colony or Jacob's role in it. I don't think it ruins his character at all.

If I had any serious problems, you'd be hearing them from me loudest of all. But there just... aren't any.

[Flash Gordon]

No, not at all. Her being Batman's first cousin is just too much. I loved the "randomness" of her origin. She's just someone inspired by the Batman.

I usually detest the need some writers have to "connect" everything and everyone.

[Godlike13]

Also no, not at all. Her world, her mythos, and her character are lesser for it. And it doesn't seem to even be paying any dividends.

[Doctor Bifrost]

This discussion seems to be popping up in a few threads lately, so I'd like to make a place to put it. Do you agree with the changes to Kate Kane's character over the past few years?

This includes the retcon that establishes her as Bruce's first cousin and the revelation that her father was grooming her to be the leader of the evil military organization dubbed "The Colony."

I don't at all. I dislike the idea of her and Bruce - and Bette - all being first cousins. I think the changes to Jacob Kane border on character assassination, and change the dynamic in a way I find unappealing - formerly, he was supporting her decision (as he supported her when she came out); now it turns out he was manipulating her and had this whole secret agenda. I preferred Batwoman far less connected to the Batfamily, as opposed to what happened in Detective Comics.

What this all adds up to for me: I used to see her as a highly independent character, inspired by Batman but quite separate from him, whose life was guided by her own decisions. But now the story portrays her as a woman torn between two alpha-dog men. "Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she follow her older cousin Bruce and his plans, or her father Jacob and his plans?"

Kate, make your own plans. Follow yourself. Create your own family. (I miss her former supporting cast, too.)

This is my opinion. But I know somebody will tell me I am "simply wrong."

[Kurisu]

I don't at all. I dislike the idea of her a Bruce - and Bette - all being first cousins. I think the changes to Jacob Kane border on character assassination, and change the dynamic in a way I find unappealing - formerly, he was supporting her decision (as he supported her when she came out); now it turns out he was manipulating her and had this whole secret agenda. I preferred Batwoman far less connected to the Batfamily, as opposed to what happened in Detective Comics.

What this all adds up to for me: I used to see her as a highly independent character, inspired by Batman but quite separate from him, whose life was guided by her own decisions. But now the story portrays her as a woman torn between two alpha-dog men. "Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she follow her older cousin Bruce and his plans, or her father Jacob and his plans?"

Kate, make your own plans. Follow yourself. Create your own family. (I miss her former supporting cast, too.)

This is my opinion. But I know somebody will tell me I am "simply wrong."

I've already said my piece in the other thread, so I'm just gonna co-sign this, especially the bold.

[Caivu]

I think the changes to Jacob Kane border on character assassination, and change the dynamic in a way I find unappealing - formerly, he was supporting her decision (as he supported her when she came out); now it turns out he was manipulating her and had this whole secret agenda.

He did support her, but that wasn't part of him manipulating her (assuming he was even doing that).

What this all adds up to for me: I used to see her as a highly independent character, inspired by Batman but quite separate from him, whose life was guided by her own decisions. But now the story portrays her as a woman torn between two alpha-dog men. "Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she follow her older cousin Bruce and his plans, or her father Jacob and his plans?"

That tension you describe isn't a new thing.

[Godlike13]

I don't at all. I dislike the idea of her a Bruce - and Bette - all being first cousins. I think the changes to Jacob Kane border on character assassination, and change the dynamic in a way I find unappealing - formerly, he was supporting her decision (as he supported her when she came out); now it turns out he was manipulating her and had this whole secret agenda. I preferred Batwoman far less connected to the Batfamily, as opposed to what happened in Detective Comics.

What this all adds up to for me: I used to see her as a highly independent character, inspired by Batman but quite separate from him, whose life was guided by her own decisions. But now the story portrays her as a woman torn between two alpha-dog men. "Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she follow her older cousin Bruce and his plans, or her father Jacob and his plans?"

Kate, make your own plans. Follow yourself. Create your own family. (I miss her former supporting cast, too.)

This is my opinion. But I know somebody will tell me I am "simply wrong."

Well, your right

[Doctor Bifrost]

Well, your right

Simply?

[Godlike13]

Yes, simply

[Carabas]

I am suddenly very happy I never got into the Rebirth stuff except for Wonder woman.

[millernumber1]

This discussion seems to be popping up in a few threads lately, so I'd like to make a place to put it. Do you agree with the changes to Kate Kane's character over the past few years?

This includes the retcon that establishes her as Bruce's first cousin and the revelation that her father was grooming her to be the leader of the evil military organization dubbed "The Colony."

I think this is a bit of a tricky question, because Kate has had two series, both of which have made significant additions or changes to the worldbuilding specifically around Kate. I think that the Colony and being Bruce's cousin (let's call it the Tec retcon) are both solid additions. The entirety of the "missing year", including the island of criminal warlords and the Many Hands of Death (let's call it the Bennett interpolation) I don't think are bad, per se (pending whatever Bennett ends up doing with Alice - if she ends up killing Alice off, I will definitely change this to "absolutely bad," if she makes Alice permanently evil, it'll be "pretty negative," and if she is able to put Alice back on the redemption or anti-heroic path, then I'll remain "not bad per se"), but I am incredibly bored with all of them. They don't change anything, I don't think it's an interesting story, and I'm incredibly frustrated that the things I do care about Kate - namely her family relationships with Alice, Jake, and Bette - are being ignored in favor of bland OCs (exactly the same problem I had with the first arc of the Andreyko run). And the one character I do think was interesting independent of being in Batwoman, Julia Pennyworth, is profoundly underutilized.

I think there are two regular posters who consistently make a strong defense of the Tec retcon - myself and Caivu. However, despite our agreement on that front, we diverge pretty sharply over the Bennett interpolation - where I find it incredibly tedious, Caivu is wholly on board with that story and enjoying it to the hilt. And all power to them. But I think it's clear that the combination of the Tec retcon and the Bennett interpolation hasn't been as invigorating to the Kate Kane fanbase that the DEO/Medusa shenanigans of the Williams/Blackman run.

The biggest argument I've seen against the Tec retcon is that it's a betrayal of Jake's character - but I think that relies too heavily on the somewhat overly warm and fuzzy portrayal of Jake in the Williams/Blackman run. I think it's a very solid extrapolation of the betrayal of Kate by Jake in Rucka's Elegy and Go. Rucka might not be happy with it (though my impression is that it's mostly the cousin thing, which...eh. I don't really care one way or the other on that, and since I prefer definite answers to ambiguity, I liked that revelation more than not), but I think Tynion's done a really good job of giving Kate a strong character voice and arc, and I hope that Batmen Eternal provides a strong, consistent closure to what he started two years ago.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

The first cousin thing is a bit too much. I actually didn't care too much when they first brought her back. We already have Batgirl (3 of them still around) do we really need another Bat person?

[Caivu]

I actually didn't care too much when they first brought her back. We already have Batgirl (3 of them still around) do we really need another Bat person?

Why not? She's a great character, and markedly different from any of the Batgirls. You could say the same sort of thing about Damian; did there need to be another Robin when there were already three around?