Do You Agree With Recent Changes to the Batwoman Character?

[Flash Gordon]

I don't at all. I dislike the idea of her and Bruce - and Bette - all being first cousins. I think the changes to Jacob Kane border on character assassination, and change the dynamic in a way I find unappealing - formerly, he was supporting her decision (as he supported her when she came out); now it turns out he was manipulating her and had this whole secret agenda. I preferred Batwoman far less connected to the Batfamily, as opposed to what happened in Detective Comics.

What this all adds up to for me: I used to see her as a highly independent character, inspired by Batman but quite separate from him, whose life was guided by her own decisions. But now the story portrays her as a woman torn between two alpha-dog men. "Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she follow her older cousin Bruce and his plans, or her father Jacob and his plans?"

Kate, make your own plans. Follow yourself. Create your own family. (I miss her former supporting cast, too.)

This is my opinion. But I know somebody will tell me I am "simply wrong."

Very well said.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

You could say the same sort of thing about Damian; did there need to be another Robin when there were already three around?

I agree there, I could have done without Damian for sure.

[Caivu]

I agree there, I could have done without Damian for sure.

Why do you hate good things?

[Oberon]

I mostly agree with this but will add:

As a Kane, there has always been some sense of related-ness to the Waynes, so it was most likely always in the cards to make them explicitly be cousins. Myself I would have preferred more distant; second cousins perhaps.

Even back in Elegy and there after (her first series) I think we could see there was unrevealed, hidden things or nuance that would explode this way.

Elegy was the first adventure with Kate et al I read, and I've never stopped liking her from that day.

To me she is the most incredible character that DC has ever made. I'm hooked (even if I tend to be a little behind on the issues)

[Oberon]

I can only slightly agree with some of this. Perhaps it was more in her first series that we saw changes to Jacob that would reveal his true nature. But hey, over at Marvel, Ned Leeds (longtime Spiderman cast) turned out to be the Hobgoblin or some other criminal - that was after quite a few years unrevealed

So plot twist like this happen a lot, and it is only the execution that may betray an otherwise good twist that serves story and characters.

You are - not - simply wrong Doc! I too wish there was more distance, ie' second cousin or something else, between Bruce and Kate, but like I said, it may have always been in the DNA; simply too much backstories suggesting some relationships there.

****** I think all of this is because Kate will move on her own back to her own type of presentation in the Gotham. I hope Bette gets a better role with her story.

I hope we see more on Jacob, I'm sure that there is a lot more and it is twisty and may surprise many of us.

[Oberon]

I haven't either - unless someone fulfills my dreams (basically also re-establishing Bette as the original Bat-girl and saying all this continuity is true)

but I try to get everything with Kate or Bette in it. She/they really are the only reason I read any DC.

[Oberon]

This is a very nice piece, thank you. I felt that Kate/Bette 'knew' Bruce before then, in her series. Am I wrong? I know Bruce knew them, right? His spying on them in the one annual, I believe (or 0 issue?)

I tend to think of myself as a not very critical poster, but as a fan of Kate and her cast, somewhere between you and Caviu on certain matters.

I would like Alice to be more of an ambiguous quality - maybe she can be redeemed. Maybe not.

I just don't know enough or been exposed enough to Julia P to get that. I guess my problem with Tec, BW to a lesser degree is that most of the stuff from her first series has incredibly drifted off. Certainly I long for Bette's return, but I also miss some of the stuff we saw going on between Kate, Bette, Jacob and also J's wife, Cathy.

I find myself more than curious - possibly the only bad retcon with Jacob is - Cathy's feelings or knowledge of this.

The island story is not a total drag to me, has mostly gotten better actually. So I lean that way. Hoping my issues will be addressed one way or the other.

[Oberon]

I don't like Damian either. But the point is there are too many characters out there; they need more books.

Could Batwoman - from this experience - lead another title as 'leader' ie "Batwoman and the Outsiders" - her own team with maybe Bette but not to many other Batfolks.

[KurtW95]

I prefer Kathy Kane to Kate Kane and really dislike the idea of a Batwoman being Bruce’s cousin. Ideally, I would bring back Kathy Kane and have her be somewhat of a live interest to Bruce. If people want Kate in addition, that’s fine. Just don’t have her be related to Bruce. Maybe give her a different last name. Kind of do what Morrison did in reverse. Kathy Kane would be the classic Batwoman and Kate Webb would be the new one introduced in the 2000s. Neither being related to Bruce.

[KurtW95]

I don't like Damian either. But the point is there are too many characters out there; they need more books.

Could Batwoman - from this experience - lead another title as 'leader' ie "Batwoman and the Outsiders" - her own team with maybe Bette but not to many other Batfolks.

IMO, Damian should be retconned out of existence and Tim should be the main Robin again. Also, there is no use for Harper Row or Duke Thomas. Stop at Cass and Stephanie. No more Batfamily members.

[Assam]

Could Batwoman - from this experience - lead another title as 'leader' ie "Batwoman and the Outsiders" - her own team with maybe Bette but not to many other Batfolks.

'Tec has shown Kate to be a TERRIBLE leader, in more ways than I'd even thought of previously, even going back to the very beginning of the run. And her most recent actions portray her as someone too independent and pig headed to be a team player at all.

[Oberon]

Kathy Kane would, to modern readers, always be related, because widow of a Wayne, no?

But we could run with that idea about Kate not being a Kane anymore. The twins are really Joker's children; that's why the unnatural pale, don't you know.

Jacob promised Joker to let him father those twins. Don't you know. Hmmmm, maybe Jacob is really Joker; 'J's.

I think most readers would totally go for this.

[Caivu]

'Tec has shown Kate to be a TERRIBLE leader, in more ways than I'd even thought of previously, even going back to the very beginning of the run. And her most recent actions portray her as someone too independent and pig headed to be a team player at all.

Um, no. Not at all.
And in the situation you're talking about, that very sort of independence is a good thing, from a saving lives standpoint.

But we could run with that idea about Kate not being a Kane anymore. The twins are really Joker's children; that's why the unnatural pale, don't you know.

Jacob promised Joker to let him father those twins. Don't you know. Hmmmm, maybe Jacob is really Joker; 'J's.

I think most readers would totally go for this.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I hope you are, because that's a horrible idea.

[Oberon]

The problem for me (well more than one) is that I go all the way back to the '60s with reading Batman (though I took a major detour from mid '80s till 2011 or so).

So I am still butt-hurt that the original Bat-girl is unacknowledged, for one.

I also stopped around the era of Jason Robin going to blow-up. I think that is another factor, along with Wolverine (and me dumping X men titles for quite some time too).

That sort of violence is very unappealing to me. So to me - -

There either should not have been a death for Jason . . . . .........

But there never should have been a Tim either.

As hard as it may be to imagine, maybe someday if comics are still published in 20 or 30 years, more people will feel like me. Maybe Tim and Steph will be the outdated, no one cares about them anymore characters.

[Oberon]

I don't agree and feel that Tim was more of a muck to things. Maybe I should re-read too.


I may agree with the independence thing though. I think she is stubborn over pig-headed. I think she would prefer to not be a team but


there is a difference with assembling your own team

and being given one, or directed to lead one.

That's why most elected offices select new staff - they'ed rather have the people they think they can best lead.

In my fan-ish canon, the reason for all this is Batman set her up for failure maybe.