Do You Agree With Recent Changes to the Batwoman Character?

[Oberon]

Previously Caviu said: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I hope you are, because that's a horrible idea.

Ouch, that hurts, I admit we don't really know each other/well/at all, but I would be absolutely against that. Yes, horribly sarcastic, I was.

[Caivu]

Previously Caviu said: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I hope you are, because that's a horrible idea.

Ouch, that hurts, I admit we don't really know each other/well/at all, but I would be absolutely against that. Yes, horribly sarcastic, I was.

Whew. Good.

[Oberon]

Breathe easy, Caivu, and understand too, that threads like these mostly seem to come from those who really don't know the characters involved.

(I know you understand, actually)

[Sacred Knight]

I'm a sucker for family connections, so I don't mind at all that she's Bruce's cousin. The rest of the changes, of which I was largely unaware of because I don't follow the Bat family religiously, sounds awful.

[SiegePerilous02]

I like some of the additions that I feel are probably mainly Bennett. That is the island stuff. Not the most interesting thing the character has been involved in, but not bad by any means.

I intensely dislike the Colony stuff and her being Bruce's cousin. I miss when she was more separate from the main Bat family and dealing with supernatural threats. It made it seen like the Kane family had their own spooky corner of Gotham all to themselves.

[Oberon]

While it seems unrealistic to some or silly, I too like her being related to Bruce, but wish it was not so close.

I went insane trying to figure out a way to make them be 2nd cousins somehow, pretty much like this (meaning : probably not workable)

That Jacob, *undisclosed father of Bette, and Martha are not siblings, or at least Martha is not to the others. She is their cousin who unknowingly was raised with them as their sister.

I mentioned this is not so far-fetched; happened in my family in the 20s or 30s, my dad's sister is really his cousin. She was raised with him and his sibs, because his Aunt had the child out of wedlock (as they used to say back then) and they wanted to not 'mar' the aunt's chances to actually get married (she never did, though)

So to me, I can actually see this happening in more wealthy families, where often parents don't do the hard raising; some nanny or governess.

so . . . Martha Kane, is perhaps really Nathaniel's child - - remember some canon suggest he was older and had a first wife before Kathy Kane/Webb came along.

Now who that actual mother to Martha could be, could be quite interesting but . . .

many of you don't care for this kind of story and intrigue.

I've personally come around to the idea that it reminds me very much of Soap Opera plotlines.

Comic books have soap operatic elements for comics fans just as

Wrestling shows have soap opera-stuff for the wrestling fans (my son: Wrestling is soap operas for men)

[Oberon]

I agree with the supernatural stuff, less with the Colony, but a little.

I think the way out would be to just not mention or have stories with the cousins, very often at all.

At my age, most of my cousins have hardly been present in my adult life (of over 40 years), so I get that. Her character can be a cousin, but do they have to work together too?

[Assam]

Um, no. Not at all.
And in the situation you're talking about, that very sort of independence is a good thing, from a saving lives standpoint.

Breaking down Kate's time as the Knights' leader, just going by what's shown and not what's told:

Rise of the Batmen: The ONLY time in the series we ever see her 'training' the others, she criticizes and belittles them (for things that are then never shown again; just bad storytelling there) but never shows why she's supposedly any better or HOW they should be doing things better. Its Tim's plans and technology which allow them to save the day. And by the end, one of Kate's subordinates is 'killed.'

Victim Syndicate: Hostile towards a potentially useful ally and her inability to garner loyalty from her troops (Unsurprising given her behavior in the first arc) leads Stephanie to betray the team, resulting in a potential new threat to them, a further drop in moral and ultimately the death of yet another one of her subordinates down the line.

League of Shadows: Like most of the team, she's completely useless here and its Luke who tries to raise the team's spirits when they're captured.

Intelligence: Fitting for it being Tynion's best arc, this is where Kate looks the best. We see her taking an active interest in the lives of her teammates and the fight with Azrael subtly shows off how her and Cass have gotten closer. Even still, this arc, like the previous two, and really the whole run, fails to showcase any actual leadership skills or tactics.

Lonely Place of Living: No one but Tim gets to do much here, but the one time Kate gives an order, Cass says no and everyone decides to follow her instead.

Fall of the Batmen: When the team is gathering to discuss what's going on, Kate gets into a bi**hing contest with Tim and Steph. It's Cass who gets everyone to focus and Bruce who gives the orders for what everyone should be doing.And in regards to the last two issues...If Kate's all about the chain of command, why would she disobey what Bruce told her? He may have put her in charge of the team, but he didn't put her in charge of Gotham and she disobeyed an order she'd just been given. If Kate's supposed to be strategic and sensible, why didn't she tell Bruce to call in his Justice pals? How could she have been stupid enough to think that everyone else would just be okay with what she did?* And then, in probably her most vile action and poor decision, why would she then choose to act cold, callous and, as she usually is, smug and superior to everyone? Clearly seeing everyone hurt, why wouldn't this supposed leader try to support her troops, act the least bit remorseful for what she had to do, instead of writing them all off?

As presented in James Tynion IV's Detective Comics, Kate is a horrible leader.

I'm sure you'll have a rebuttal for everything I've said here and I'm equally sure I won't agree with most of what you say. But hey, that's just our routine with this book at this point.

*Luke acting the way he did was very OOC and I'm fairly sure JPV only went with her out of solidarity, not because he agreed with her actions.

[adrikito]

No.... I prefer EVERYTHING before "Tim death" in detective comics..

However, I am more surprised for see that I am the first in vote in the poll

This is the 3rd page of comments..

[Celgress]

Not really, so yeah I don't like the recent retcons of her character.

[Caivu]

Rise of the Batmen: The ONLY time in the series we ever see her 'training' the others, she criticizes and belittles them (for things that are then never shown again; just bad storytelling there) but never shows why she's supposedly any better or HOW they should be doing things better.

She criticizes them because she needs to be hard on them due to the nature of their work. And those things are shown again: Steph is critiqued for expending too much energy, and later uses less direct forms of combat; Cass tries to take on too many goals at once, and is later given singular objectives; and Clayface both learns how to actually fight and use his powers more creatively.

And by the end, one of Kate's subordinates is 'killed.'

What does that have to do with her leadership at all, pro or con? And Tim "died" while trying to protect others; that's hardly something to be ashamed of.

Victim Syndicate: Hostile towards a potentially useful ally and her inability to garner loyalty from her troops (Unsurprising given her behavior in the first arc) leads Stephanie to betray the team, resulting in a potential new threat to them, a further drop in moral and ultimately the death of yet another one of her subordinates down the line.

Kate was hostile to Luke because she thought he wasn't taking vigilantism seriously, and was rightly concerned, especially since it was obvious he was going to replace Tim, which was still a raw thing. I don't think you can base Steph's actions on a "lack of loyalty", since there are much bigger contributing factors than that. It's an awful big reach.

League of Shadows: Like most of the team, she's completely useless here and its Luke who tries to raise the team's spirits when they're captured.

Luke had also been awake for longer and wasn't as freshly injured. Also, that fits his personality.

Intelligence: Fitting for it being Tynion's best arc, this is where Kate looks the best. We see her taking an active interest in the lives of her teammates and the fight with Azrael subtly shows off how her and Cass have gotten closer. Even still, this arc, like the previous two, and really the whole run, fails to showcase any actual leadership skills or tactics.

Lonely Place of Living: No one but Tim gets to do much here, but the one time Kate gives an order, Cass says no and everyone decides to follow her instead.

Offhand, I don't recall the specifics of what you're talking about here. So... half credit for now.

Fall of the Batmen: When the team is gathering to discuss what's going on, Kate gets into a bi**hing contest with Tim and Steph. It's Cass who gets everyone to focus and Bruce who gives the orders for what everyone should be doing.

You're acting like that "bitching contest" wasn't actually important. Tim was considering allying with the Colony, who are still on the outs with them. That's kinda something that needs to be discussed.

If Kate's all about the chain of command, why would she disobey what Bruce told her? He may have put her in charge of the team, but he didn't put her in charge of Gotham and she disobeyed an order she'd just been given.

Because if an order causes unnecessary deaths, it should be disobeyed. I also don't know where you're getting this idea that Kate is "all about the chain of command" all the time, 100% unquestioningly.

If Kate's supposed to be strategic and sensible, why didn't she tell Bruce to call in his Justice pals?

Why didn't Bruce suggest that?

How could she have been stupid enough to think that everyone else would just be okay with what she did?

There's no indication she thought that.

And then, in probably her most vile action and poor decision, why would she then choose to act cold, callous and, as she usually is, smug and superior to everyone? Clearly seeing everyone hurt, why wouldn't this supposed leader try to support her troops, act the least bit remorseful for what she had to do, instead of writing them all off?

She doesn't act smug and superior, first of all.

Second, she's not remorseful because she doesn't think she did anything wrong. She took one life to save countless more. Plus it's immediately afterward with a bunch of people yelling at her while she tries to explain her case.

[Oberon]

Well, as they say, "you've given me a lot to think about".

These are valid observations. I don't recall feeling the same way when I read them, but they are valid as your feelings.

Perhaps it points more to the fact that some have said they are not appreciating Tynions's writing over all. So I blame him

not Kate. Kate always previously seemed less likely to not be taken seriously. Perhaps this buildup was for something, and I think it is her leaving the team in Tec.

I actually kinda hope so. I'm not really into the rest of the Bat world. I haven't enjoyed Bruce for ages. Tim and Steph seem shallow to me, or I just can't resonate to them for some reason.

I would prefer Batwoman go back to more eerie tales with her own cast.

[Assam]

I would prefer Batwoman go back to more eerie tales with her own cast.

Seems doubtful for the immediate future. The current solo is gonna end at 18, 20 or 24 and it's probably gonna be at least a few years before she gets another solo after this one ends.

[Oberon]

I'm going to say this: You were the debate team Captain, right Caviu? Incredible responses that are really true to Kate's character.

On this: She criticizes them because she needs to be hard on them due to the nature of their work. And those things are shown again: Steph is critiqued for expending too much energy, and later uses less direct forms of combat; Cass tries to take on too many goals at once, and is later given singular objectives; and Clayface both learns how to actually fight and use his powers more creatively.


I would say that most readers of her first series would say "She was far more harsh with her own cousin, Bette - - and for the same reasons. This is military level of training/engagement/and looking out for your team, knowing really what they can do, or not"

Thanks again Caviu

[Oberon]

Well, you're probably right, sadly. If this happens I may as well end all comics then. I'll be 63 this year and I am getting ready for something different.