Do You Agree With Recent Changes to the Batwoman Character?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm not much of a fan of her being Bruce's first cousin either. I would have been more okay with it if they were distant cousins or related by marriage. She was Bette's cousin before Flashpoint and Bette's aunt Kathy, the original Batwoman, was Bruce's aunt by marriage, so she and Bruce were already somewhat related.

[Punisher007]

Her being Bruce's cousin, eh I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. It doesn't matter that much to me honestly.

What they've been doing with her dad, now THAT I do hate. Just awful all-around (also gives me flashbacks to Sam Lane, and I didn't like that either).

[JasonTodd428]

I don't care about her being Bruce's cousin at all but I literally hate what they've been doing to her dad. Like Punisher007 said to gives me flashbacks to Sam Lane which I also hated with a passion.

[Oberon]

Perhaps it is a stretch somewhat. But I felt some of this could be seen before the current series of Tec and BW. That he was certainly aggressive, and controlling.

Maybe there is a hidden secret? The flashback from a while ago, where Jacob was so upset at/after Martha's funeral and all the things he said about Waynes

[Mutant God]

I like her and Bruce being first cousins but I don't care for Jacob being apart of a terrorist group.

[JasonTodd428]

Perhaps it is a stretch somewhat. But I felt some of this could be seen before the current series of Tec and BW. That he was certainly aggressive, and controlling.

Maybe there is a hidden secret? The flashback from a while ago, where Jacob was so upset at/after Martha's funeral and all the things he said about Waynes

Honestly I felt that there was enough family drama here already and frankly Gotham is inundated with secret organizations that Batman somehow wasn't aware of these days. I think that plot device has been severely overdone in recent years and that writers need to stop defaulting to it when they can't think of something else.

[Punisher007]

Yeah there was already "family drama" with the whole "you kept the truth about my sister from me" thing anyway. This, this just feels so generic, and predictable, and dull, etc.

[The Whovian]

First, I accidentally voted yes, when I wanted to vote no. My bad.

Second, I don't like the new changes. The being Bruce's cousin thing I could live with. But I don't like all of this other stuff that is coming up now.

That being said, I still like Kate very much and want to see her book succeed.

[SiegePerilous02]

Perhaps it is a stretch somewhat. But I felt some of this could be seen before the current series of Tec and BW. That he was certainly aggressive, and controlling.

I didn't read any of the past stuff beyond her team up with Wonder Woman*, but from what I read in Rucka's run and the early New 52 arcs, Jacob didn't seem that aggressive or controlling at all. He kept a pretty big secret from her (Beth), but the nature of that secret is considerably different than him pretty much being a super villain. That was an attempt to protect her, albeit a misguided one, and his daughter growing up to be Alice is also going to obviously be painful for him. Unless I'm missing stuff from what came after, Tynion's take on Jacob is character assassination.

*Speaking of which, the quality of her villains has plummeted. Knife is okay in relation to the stuff with Safiyah, but the cover for #4 of the current series made me hopeful that the Kali organization had some actual mythological/supernatural ties. No such luck (unless things have changed in recent issues?). The Many Arms of Death and the Colony just don't stack up compared to Medusa, Bloody Mary, the Weeping Woman, etc. Even the non-powered Alice has a larger than life, attention grabbing quality to her that makes her pop off the page when surrounded by her gothic/fairy tale imagery. The Colony is just so bland in comparison.

[Caivu]

I didn't read any of the past stuff beyond her team up with Wonder Woman*, but from what I read in Rucka's run and the early New 52 arcs, Jacob didn't seem that aggressive or controlling at all.

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*Speaking of which, the quality of her villains has plummeted. Knife is okay in relation to the stuff with Safiyah, but the cover for #4 of the current series made me hopeful that the Kali organization had some actual mythological/supernatural ties. No such luck (unless things have changed in recent issues?). The Many Arms of Death and the Colony just don't stack up compared to Medusa, Bloody Mary, the Weeping Woman, etc. Even the non-powered Alice has a larger than life, attention grabbing quality to her that makes her pop off the page when surrounded by her gothic/fairy tale imagery. The Colony is just so bland in comparison.

That would run counter to the more spy-ish, noirish tone of the book, though. It's good that she has villains who aren't all supernaturally-affiliated, since that just pigeonholes her.

[SiegePerilous02]

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Yes, and? That seems like a pretty natural reaction for a father to have when he learns his daughter is following the footsteps of a crazy superhero vigilante who dresses as a crime fighting Dracula. A father who is in the army to boot. And he then relents and decides to help her not long after that. I don't see anything there from which the Colony is a natural extension.

That would run counter to the more spy-ish, noirish tone of the book, though. It's good that she has villains who aren't all supernaturally-affiliated, since that just pigeonholes her.

The worst part is though, we already had a spy-ish affiliated Bat-book and it was much better than this and stood out more. Maybe giving her supernatural villains (and the Religion of Crime isn't completely supernatural either from what I recall, aren't all the man-beasts the results of comic booky genetic tampering?) pigeonholes her, but it was a niche that worked and set her apart. And generated more interest than her current book. In terms of sales and buzz, turning away from that stuff hasn't helped her.

[Pohzee]

I understand that Jacob's story is similar in nature to previous stories. The difference is degree. This scenario is so much more over-the-top that it is more absurd than interesting.

[Caivu]

Yes, and?

Is that not him being aggressive and controlling? Here's another (less severe) example:

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The worst part is though, we already had a spy-ish affiliated Bat-book and it was much better than this and stood out more.

And had it gone in a more flashy, Graysonish direction, people would have dinged it for copying that (heck, they did, before it was even released).

Maybe giving her supernatural villains (and the Religion of Crime isn't completely supernatural either from what I recall, aren't all the man-beasts the results of comic booky genetic tampering?) pigeonholes her, but it was a niche that worked and set her apart.

It was, yes. You know what her other niche is? Counterterror and black-ops stuff. Kinda like what she's doing now.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Why do you hate good things?

We didn't need a new Robin. The one we had was perfectly fine.

I don't like Damian either. But the point is there are too many characters out there; they need more books.

Could Batwoman - from this experience - lead another title as 'leader' ie "Batwoman and the Outsiders" - her own team with maybe Bette but not to many other Batfolks.

That's actually a good idea and a natural progression from what's been going on in 'Tec. Batwoman and the Outsiders!

[SiegePerilous02]

Is that not him being aggressive and controlling? Here's another (less severe) example:

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As Kate herself says right there, that's just him being a dad who is concerned she's pushing herself after nearly dying a second time. She's sassing back at him too, she's hardly under his thumb. Still not seeing "Leader of the Colony" material here.

And had it gone in a more flashy, Graysonish direction, people would have dinged it for copying that (heck, they did, before it was even released).

Probably because people were pissed that Dick's best book in ages was cancelled and it sounded like the premise was being given to Kate, a character who didn't really need it.

It was, yes. You know what her other niche is? Counterterror and black-ops stuff. Kinda like what she's doing now.

Except they worked that stuff into the supernatural stories quite effectively. Medusa was a terrorist organization, so Kate was doing the counter terror stuff on a heightened superhero scale. Same with the Religion of Crime to a lesser extent on the supernatural side. The stuff now is one half of two components that worked well together.

We didn't need a new Robin. The one we had was perfectly fine.

Why settle for "perfectly fine" when you could have great?

Damian's dynamics with his father and *especially* Dick make him the superior character, IMO. Tim does nothing for me.