Do You Agree With Recent Changes to the Batwoman Character?

[Godlike13]

Is that not him being aggressive and controlling?

No, its not. Because in the full scene he ultimately accepts what she wants to do and supports her. Your attempt to pervert that scene to fit your argument is as lame as Tynion's perversion of Jacobs character.

[Assam]

That's actually a good idea and a natural progression from what's been going on in 'Tec. Batwoman and the Outsiders!

If we went with the ideas on this forum, we'd have more BatFamily members having lead the Outsiders than have been on the Justice League.

[Caivu]

As Kate herself says right there, that's just him being a dad who is concerned she's pushing herself after nearly dying a second time. She's sassing back at him too, she's hardly under his thumb. Still not seeing "Leader of the Colony" material here.

Then I'm not following what point you're getting at.

Except they worked that stuff into the supernatural stories quite effectively. Medusa was a terrorist organization, so Kate was doing the counter terror stuff on a heightened superhero scale. Same with the Religion of Crime to a lesser extent on the supernatural side. The stuff now is one half of two components that worked well together.

They did mesh it together well, which is why there's no need to rehash the same sort of thing. Both work well, but that also goes for either concept on its own.

No, its not. Because in the full scene he ultimately accepts what she wants to do and supports her.

That does not in any way change the fact that he was trying, relatively forcefully, to get her to stop.

[Godlike13]

That does not in any way change the fact that he was trying, relatively forcefully, to get her to stop.

Except it does, as in the actual full scene he ultimately didn't try to stop her. Instead he accepts her decision, and then helps and supports her in it. He did the opposite of what your trying to claim he did in that scene.

[SiegePerilous02]

Then I'm not following what point you're getting at.

I'm not really sure about yours either. Like Godlike said, you keep posting images from that scene but it does not support the characterization Tynion went with at all. He's trying to get her to stop out of paternal concern and he's an army dad, so being nice and relaxed about the whole thing wouldn't be in his nature. That does not lead to what we saw in Detective comics. And he always ends up supporting her anyway, because she's too stubborn to be controlled, so it's not a controlling manipulative relationship.

They did mesh it together well, which is why there's no need to rehash the same sort of thing. Both work well, but that also goes for either concept on its own.

Sometimes if a thing ain't broke, why fix it? There is a limitless amount of folklore and urban legends to draw from for her stories so the likelihood of things getting old aren't that high in the hands of a capable writer. The counter terrorist stuff on its own has evidently not worked out that well as sales are not that high for the book. How has it helped her?

[Kurisu]

Tim does nothing for me.

He's as useless as Stephanie and Cassandra tbh. Time for War Games Pt 2 me thinks; cut the fat.

[Assam]

The counter terrorist stuff on its own has evidently not worked out that well as sales are not that high for the book.

A generous way of putting it.

I haven't checked it out myself, but according to Caivu, the first trade did sell at least decently.

[Caivu]

Except it does, as he ultimately didn't try to stop her and instead helped and supported her. He did the opposite of what your trying to claim he did in that scene.

Eventually he did, yes, after she convinced him she was serious. But not at first.

[Godlike13]

Eventually he did, yes, after she convinced him she was serious. But not at first.

It was the very next page. You can not be serious with this. Your completely perverting that scene and what it actually displayed Jacob to be. Which was loving and supportive.

[Caivu]

Like Godlike said, you keep posting images from that scene but it does not support the characterization Tynion went with at all.

This what I meant. What are you talking about?

Sometimes if a thing ain't broke, why fix it? There is a limitless amount of folklore and urban legends to draw from for her stories so the likelihood of things getting old aren't that high in the hands of a capable writer. The counter terrorist stuff on its own has evidently not worked out that well as sales are not that high for the book. How has it helped her?

Of course there are plenty of such things. But those can be saved for another time. I'm glad she's expanding out into something related and reasonable to her skills, but also different.

It was the very next page. You can not be serious with this. Your completely perverting that scene and what it actually displayed Jacob to be. Which was loving and supportive.

I know that. I know he supported her in that scene. But at the beginning of it, he was trying to get her to stop being a vigilante. She changed his mind.

[Pohzee]

Concerned parent disagrees with but ultimately accepts the choice of his adult daughter

vs.

Manipulative parent secretly grooms his daughter to be the leader of a secret military organization without her consent or awareness

[Caivu]

Concerned parent disagrees with but ultimately accepts the choice of his adult daughter

vs.

Manipulative parent secretly grooms his daughter to be the leader of a secret military organization without her consent or awareness

Take a third option:

A dad who wants to help his daughter succeed in her dream of joining the Army, hopefully to work alongside him at some point. Who respects her decision to stay true to herself and give up that dream rather than live a lie. Who decides to help her reintegrate into the military by unofficial means after she works as a vigilante, not being able to tell her about it and misunderstanding that that's not necessarily what she wants anymore.

[Doctor Bifrost]

To me it's sort of funny. We started with what I probably think were two unrelated, minor, Easter-egg homages to Bob Kane: Naming the first (Silver Age) Batwoman Kathy Kane (also rhymes with Wayne, which loosely reminds me of easy, grab-for-it naming choices of the Silver Age, like giving Oliver QUEEN/Green Arrow a female counterpart named Bonnie KING/Miss Arrowette*), and later giving Martha Wayne the maiden name Kane. There was no indication that that Batwoman was related to Batman - she was created specifically to be a romantic interest for Batman (to deflect from the suggestions that he and Robin were "obviously" a gay couple - that you, Dr. Wertham!), and it was only much, much later that they decided Kane was her married name.

But those two choices have propagated into the future, combined, literalized, and now we have three first-cousin Batfamily members who practically make it look like Bruce's decision was genetically determined.

I assumed that Jacob Kane and Kate Kane would turn out to be related to Bruce, but more distantly. Especially since they were Jewish and absolutely nothing in the presentation of Bruce Wayne and his family had ever suggested - even in the symbolic, indirect manner of comic books - a Jewish connection. Here was my guess: about three generations back, when it would have been a scandal, a Kane man converted to Judaism to marry a Jewish woman. This caused a split between the two parts of the family, with the Jewish branch being politely shunned. (Believe me, it happened all the time.)

Several generations later, Bruce and Kate know they are distantly related, acknowledge each other kindly when they meet at society galas, and may be slightly embarrassed by the way the family handled it all 75+ years ago. But the split happened a long time ago, and questions of whether Kate (and Beth) and Bruce were friendly as kids; Bruce attending Beth & Gabrielle's funeral and holding Kate's hand; Jacob's response to the murder of his sister and the orphaning of his 10-year-old nephew; whether Bruce - having become the best detective in the world, and obsessively interested in why his parents were killed - went on the investigate the subsequent murder of his aunt and cousin (which would have presumably uncovered some details prematurely, from the point of view of the Batwoman narrative)... well, none of this would come up at all. Most people don't know, or barely know, their third cousins, and don't think of them as "close family" - as opposed to their mother's brother, their aunts, and their first cousins.

But that's just me.

I have no objection to Bette being Kate's first cousin. But I wish Bette would reject Kate's heavily militarized view of superheroing, give up the terrible name Hawkfire (which sounds like a raptor with digestive problems), quit the military when she realizes she was just copying Kate's life, and go back to being Flamebird, a relatively bright and cheerful superhero, in contrast to the grim style of most of the people in Batman's orbit (and, increasingly, the DCU in general).

(* The name "Miss Arrowette" is really doubling down on the femaleness of the name. I suppose she was lucky they didn't go for "Miss Arrowette Girl.")

[SiegePerilous02]

This what I meant. What are you talking about?

You posted that scene to show him being controlling and aggressive in response to my saying Tynion's ideas were nonsense. So I assumed you meant to use it to support his take?

[Caivu]

You posted that scene to show him being controlling and aggressive in response to my saying Tynion's ideas were nonsense. So I assumed you meant to use it to support his take?

Sure, I guess, but I also don't think I'm clear on what you're interpreting that take as, only that you think it's wrong.